Report, edit, etc...Posted by Tuxedo Templar on 2006-09-18 at 18:36:02
Oh? But it had to be someone from SEN most likely to have made those kinds of changes. They didn't seem entirely random from what I could tell.
Well that changes things a bit, but still leaves a few questions. The least we could accuse devilesk for was being a jerk at the time, though.
Well that changes things a bit, but still leaves a few questions. The least we could accuse devilesk for was being a jerk at the time, though.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Kenoli on 2006-09-19 at 02:59:53
QUOTE(Tuxedo Templar)
The least we could accuse devilesk for was being a jerk at the time, though.
We can do that pretty much any ol' time.Report, edit, etc...Posted by Xx.Doom.xX on 2006-09-20 at 19:25:29
I actually think we should support OSMAP. One reason, we dont have noobs from b.net that steal maps and take the credit. Do we? The only thing i've heard and ive never seen the actual proof was a map that supposevly stole....can remember the name.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by exo6yte on 2006-09-20 at 19:40:00
DoomStrike is correct. OSMAP is harmless. It's a utility that will help this community grow. It should be supported.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by EviL on 2006-09-20 at 19:40:48
Do you really thinks that we, the posters, are the only ones that come to this forum?
Alot of 'lurkers' come here just to get editors and stuff like that. And probably if we release OSMAP, there will be a popular starcraft website that will host it too.
I think we should not support this program. People who want to support this, just don't protect your maps and accept the fact that some people want to keep the map protected for some reasons. And also, if you really want to know how the guy did such a trigger, just use Trigger Viewer. Sure, it's not the best thing, but hey, it's better than OSMAP IMO.
Alot of 'lurkers' come here just to get editors and stuff like that. And probably if we release OSMAP, there will be a popular starcraft website that will host it too.
I think we should not support this program. People who want to support this, just don't protect your maps and accept the fact that some people want to keep the map protected for some reasons. And also, if you really want to know how the guy did such a trigger, just use Trigger Viewer. Sure, it's not the best thing, but hey, it's better than OSMAP IMO.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Mini Moose 2707 on 2006-09-20 at 19:43:33
Random question.... how many if any of our affiliates are hosting OSMAP? What other sites is it on?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by BSTRhino on 2006-09-20 at 19:51:01
Yeah, at StarCraft.org the active community is about 3% of the daily visitors. So, for every one active member there's 32 lurkers. I bet there's a better ratio for StarEdit.net, but I would be surprised if there were more members than there were lurkers, most websites will have more unseen visitors unless they're invite-only.
Plus, I see map stealing first hand at StarCraft.org, it really does happen. Actually I've seen not only map stealing, but everything stealing, fanfiction, fan art, mods... it's real. It doesn't happen every day, but it does happen quite often.
There's always trigger viewers and things.
I should say though that I do think it's cool when people create unprotected maps. Life would suck if the guy who created Special Forces just protected it. But I just think it's up to the author to take that risk.
Plus, I see map stealing first hand at StarCraft.org, it really does happen. Actually I've seen not only map stealing, but everything stealing, fanfiction, fan art, mods... it's real. It doesn't happen every day, but it does happen quite often.
There's always trigger viewers and things.
I should say though that I do think it's cool when people create unprotected maps. Life would suck if the guy who created Special Forces just protected it. But I just think it's up to the author to take that risk.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Tuxedo Templar on 2006-09-20 at 20:01:42
You know, open source is good and all, but what isn't good is forcing it. That was irresponsible of LW to make that decision on his own earlier, sure, but even now as a community vote it'll still thwart the efforts of everyone who stood for protection earlier if it passes.
I covered all the main points of the issue awhile ago here, so there's really no need to debate it anymore. Here, I'll even quote it:
A lot of good reasons exist for it to be around, but fundamentally it's trumped by the simple fact that people aren't required to use protection if they don't want, so taking it away altogether translates fundamentally to whether you believe map making should be anarchistic or have control mechanisms in place. Clans and members can afford to be anarchistic, and indeed probably should choose the open source approach for themselves more regularily.
That doesn't mean they should get to decide that for others, though.
Even if one person has a reason or need to protect their map, then that should be enough. As SEN is the main hub for the map making community, it's kinda irresponsible to make it an unordered anarchy.
It would be like taking to roof off of a shelter; Maybe you'd enjoy the fresh air and view, sure, but when bad weather hit's you'll probably want it back.
I covered all the main points of the issue awhile ago here, so there's really no need to debate it anymore. Here, I'll even quote it:
QUOTE(Tuxedo Templar @ Sep 8 2006, 03:43 AM)
Ok here, I've compiled a few lists:
Protection is bad. Here's why:
Protection is good. Here's why:
What about LegacyWeapon's unprotector though?
Unprotection is good. Here's why:
That should about cover it all the main perspectives on the matter. Did I forget any?
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Protection is bad. Here's why:
- It prevents people from learning from other's maps.
- Maps can't be improved or upgraded by others who enjoy playing them.
- Protection seems to do little else but secure bragging rights for the author.
- Maps where never meant to be protected anyway. Blizzard never released a protector, did they?
- Protectors, like all third party software (including modding tools and map editors), are illegal and against the EULA.
- Maps affected by Starcraft patch changes can't easily be updated/fixed.
- Maps benefit more from being open to others for learning/improvement than they gain from being permanently protected from rigging or stealing.
- There could be more varieties of a given map available to choose from, based on preference.
Protection is good. Here's why:
- It prevents people from stealing maps.
- Maps can't be rigged or imbalanced.
- Protected maps need less downloads than frequently modified unprotected maps (each requiring new downloads). You know what to expect each time you play.
- Authors should always have more rights to their maps than random bnet strangers.
- Protection allows the author to control who gets access to the map and who doesn't, at their discretion.
- Protection is optional. Authors may wish to keep their maps open source, but they don't have to if they feel endangered.
What about LegacyWeapon's unprotector though?
Unprotection is good. Here's why:
- It's already out. There's no going back... unless someone makes another protector.
- Previously blocked maps are now free to see inside and learn from.
- Maps can now be improved, updated, or fixed, if their authors have neglected/are unable to do so themselves.
- With protection out of the way, mappers can be closer by being able to share editing a given map.
- Who cares about whose name is on the map anyway? Editing maps is supposed to be for fun. Protection just gets in the way of that.
- Someone was probably gonna make/release one anyway.
- Maps can now be stolen by malicious parties.
- Maps can now be rigged or imbalanced.
- My rights to my maps are taken away by others who disagree with my having them. That's not fair.
- Unprotection strips a map of all its labels and trigger commenting, making learning from or trying to modify it too obfusticating anyway.
- Now I'm forced to have to convince others of being the author, if my works get stolen.
- If I don't have a good reputation, I may not be able to convince others. I risk losing my maps if so.
- If I'm at risk, I'll end up spending more time defending myself, and less time making maps.
- An unprotector, also a third party program, would be just as "illegal" as a protector is, anyway.
That should about cover it all the main perspectives on the matter. Did I forget any?
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A lot of good reasons exist for it to be around, but fundamentally it's trumped by the simple fact that people aren't required to use protection if they don't want, so taking it away altogether translates fundamentally to whether you believe map making should be anarchistic or have control mechanisms in place. Clans and members can afford to be anarchistic, and indeed probably should choose the open source approach for themselves more regularily.
That doesn't mean they should get to decide that for others, though.
Even if one person has a reason or need to protect their map, then that should be enough. As SEN is the main hub for the map making community, it's kinda irresponsible to make it an unordered anarchy.
It would be like taking to roof off of a shelter; Maybe you'd enjoy the fresh air and view, sure, but when bad weather hit's you'll probably want it back.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Xeno on 2006-09-20 at 20:08:11
Bam.
I'm sure everybody's really impressed.
I'm sure everybody's really impressed.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by fritfrat(U) on 2006-09-20 at 20:12:26
Tux has all this straight.
When Xeno sent that to me, I didn't see anything, but it's apparently the OSMAP log of his map being stolen.
I guess if SEN supports OSMAP, we can always host every game we play, by downloading the maps directly off SEN so they aren't rigged. Supporting it will make it more widely used, simple as that.
When Xeno sent that to me, I didn't see anything, but it's apparently the OSMAP log of his map being stolen.
I guess if SEN supports OSMAP, we can always host every game we play, by downloading the maps directly off SEN so they aren't rigged. Supporting it will make it more widely used, simple as that.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by WoAHorde2 on 2006-09-20 at 20:20:54
If we support OSMAP.ALl the people that we have Ipbanned(Yes they can get on another comp),and many enemys of SEN will abuse it and destroy protected maps,which are protected for a reason.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by PCFredZ on 2006-09-20 at 20:32:30
I have a better idea.
Disallow OSMAP.
If you want maps to be open source, don't protect any of your maps.
If you don't want maps to be open source, protect all of your maps.
I don't even know why you guys even slap the "open source" label on SC maps.
A map isn't a piece of software. Jeez. People either want to show others their maps or don't. If a map is rigged, B.neters still have fun playing them. If a map is stolen... gues what? B.neters still have fun playing them.
Having your name on a map doesn't benefit you at all. If you want recognition, make a thread about the map on SEN. It'll get your name spread much more than putting a string inside a .scm or .scx file.
Stealing maps doesn't benefit you either. It won't improving your mapping or logic abilities as making a map will, and it won't help you make money like stealing other things will. It only makes DEAD cry.
So guys, come on. Don't make DEAD cry.
ADDITION:
FYI, I didn't vote because I don't really care about OSMAP at all. My only complaint for it is that it can't perfectly unprotect my own maps that I need unprotected to revise. And, oh yeah, it's causing some pretty annoying reactions from everyone. Therefore OSMAP sucks. Or wait, is it the annoying people?
Disallow OSMAP.
If you want maps to be open source, don't protect any of your maps.
If you don't want maps to be open source, protect all of your maps.
I don't even know why you guys even slap the "open source" label on SC maps.
A map isn't a piece of software. Jeez. People either want to show others their maps or don't. If a map is rigged, B.neters still have fun playing them. If a map is stolen... gues what? B.neters still have fun playing them.
Having your name on a map doesn't benefit you at all. If you want recognition, make a thread about the map on SEN. It'll get your name spread much more than putting a string inside a .scm or .scx file.
Stealing maps doesn't benefit you either. It won't improving your mapping or logic abilities as making a map will, and it won't help you make money like stealing other things will. It only makes DEAD cry.
So guys, come on. Don't make DEAD cry.
ADDITION:
FYI, I didn't vote because I don't really care about OSMAP at all. My only complaint for it is that it can't perfectly unprotect my own maps that I need unprotected to revise. And, oh yeah, it's causing some pretty annoying reactions from everyone. Therefore OSMAP sucks. Or wait, is it the annoying people?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by DT_Battlekruser on 2006-09-20 at 20:32:55
That's my stance.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by exo6yte on 2006-09-20 at 20:34:08
Starcraft maps are meant to be open source. If all of the maps were locked in the early days of mapping, there would have been no large progress in innovation of mapping. Locking maps is detrimental to the map community's growth. Don't let your greed for prestige get in the way of map creation.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Tuxedo Templar on 2006-09-20 at 20:36:04
QUOTE(exo6yte @ Sep 20 2006, 07:33 PM)
Starcraft maps are meant to be open source. If all of the maps were locked in the early days of mapping, there would have been no large progress in innovation of mapping. Locking maps is detrimental to the map community's growth. Don't let your greed for prestige get in the way of map creation.
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That's already been stated, exo. That's not the issue. By that logic, couldn't you also say a random bnet stranger might be just as greedy by wanting to get into someone's map?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by exo6yte on 2006-09-20 at 20:39:51
We can't dictate their behavior.
You know what? People, don't even put your name on your maps. If you make them for prestige, you're an idiot and you're only stroking your ego.
You know what? People, don't even put your name on your maps. If you make them for prestige, you're an idiot and you're only stroking your ego.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Mini Moose 2707 on 2006-09-20 at 20:40:53
If it were a read only map viewer with no editing functions... I'd say sure, go ahead. Not the case, though. :/
Report, edit, etc...Posted by exo6yte on 2006-09-20 at 20:41:35
Using some wimpy, castrated viewer does not compare to looking at the map's raw materials. Do not attempt to use sarcasm on me.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Tuxedo Templar on 2006-09-20 at 20:56:46
QUOTE(exo6yte @ Sep 20 2006, 07:41 PM)
Using some wimpy, castrated viewer does not compare to looking at the map's raw materials. Do not attempt to use sarcasm on me.
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Except without commenting and labels there's not much use to viewing or unprotecting anyway (protectors usually remove those from the map). You'd always want to try to get the map in its pre-protected form for editing instead of butchering the protected copy. Unless you're doing something minor.[right][snapback]564978[/snapback][/right]
The only solid reason I've found for OSMAP is fixing maps wrecked by the patch. That, however, doesn't need to be everyone's duty, though. Nor should it.
OSMAP might not be stoppable at this point, but that doesn't mean it's spread can't be controlled at least by not making it widely publicly available (like by not posting it on SEN). Most casual people don't know where to get it, or know enough about mapping to be useful with it anyway, which leaves little options for their use of it beyond changing a few unit stats or adding their name to it somewhere. Suddenly giving them easy access would not be the wisest decision.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Xx.Doom.xX on 2006-09-20 at 21:14:12
QUOTE(BSTRhino @ Sep 20 2006, 07:50 PM)
Yeah, at StarCraft.org the active community is about 3% of the daily visitors. So, for every one active member there's 32 lurkers. I bet there's a better ratio for StarEdit.net, but I would be surprised if there were more members than there were lurkers, most websites will have more unseen visitors unless they're invite-only.
Plus, I see map stealing first hand at StarCraft.org, it really does happen. Actually I've seen not only map stealing, but everything stealing, fanfiction, fan art, mods... it's real. It doesn't happen every day, but it does happen quite often.
There's always trigger viewers and things.
I should say though that I do think it's cool when people create unprotected maps. Life would suck if the guy who created Special Forces just protected it. But I just think it's up to the author to take that risk.
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Plus, I see map stealing first hand at StarCraft.org, it really does happen. Actually I've seen not only map stealing, but everything stealing, fanfiction, fan art, mods... it's real. It doesn't happen every day, but it does happen quite often.
There's always trigger viewers and things.
I should say though that I do think it's cool when people create unprotected maps. Life would suck if the guy who created Special Forces just protected it. But I just think it's up to the author to take that risk.
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?? So you mean Starcraft.org, your site, people will find OSMAP here and use it to steal maps? Arent your members on Starcraft.org like ours? Or is it just me.
ADD:
I dont know how we'd stop OSMAP anyways, we'd have to test stuff in the .chk from the map and screw around wit it like a test map. And then use that and like make an update or a similar program to Proedit. Still, it be kinda hard.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Tuxedo Templar on 2006-09-20 at 21:16:31
Not all of them, doomstrike. A lot of starcraft.org caters to more casual people, whereas SEN is more technical and mapper oriented. You'll get a higher immaturity ratio in general through sc.org as a result.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by BeeR_KeG on 2006-09-20 at 21:18:50
I haven't read anything expect the first post which states the purpose of this thread. As an old retiree, I won't really take sides, but just ask some logical rethorical questions.
If we do allow OSMAP, whould there be a reason to protect maps if they are going to be unprotected?
Why not just not protect them in the first place, why not just "disallow" both protection and unprotection?
This will be a simpler way of using the same function of Unprotectors, since the maps will still be opened.
If Unprotection is allowed, there is no need for protection and thus, no need for either program.
If we do allow OSMAP, whould there be a reason to protect maps if they are going to be unprotected?
Why not just not protect them in the first place, why not just "disallow" both protection and unprotection?
This will be a simpler way of using the same function of Unprotectors, since the maps will still be opened.
If Unprotection is allowed, there is no need for protection and thus, no need for either program.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by WoAHorde2 on 2006-09-20 at 21:19:35
This protection/OSMAP debate is turning into a full heated war 
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Tuxedo Templar on 2006-09-20 at 21:23:30
QUOTE(WoAHorde2 @ Sep 20 2006, 08:19 PM)
This protection/OSMAP debate is turning into a full heated war
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Naw. I think it's starting to wrap up. There's not much left to be said.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by WoAHorde2 on 2006-09-20 at 21:27:56
QUOTE(Tuxedo Templar @ Sep 20 2006, 05:23 PM)
Naw. I think it's starting to wrap up. There's not much left to be said.
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Well thats what were all hoping isn't it Tux?The vote currently stands with 12 more NO votes then yes.So OSMAP doesn't look like its here to stay on SEN.