Staredit Network

Not racist? Let's see... how about the Iraqi families arrested without any justification besides their nationality? Just because there are intelligent debaters doesn't mean the debate is intelligent, or it's start. Linking a video showing beheadings doesn't exactly bring out the logical and thinking part of people.

Theoretical.....there was no 'order' or 'bill' that the government created to tell law enforcement or army soldiers to arrest iraqi civs. The Soldiers probably got tips from other Iraqis about a surtian family, but the tips were probably bad. Just becuase a Soldier makes a bad judgement doesn't mean the government in charge is in fault. For god sakes the soldiers need to take responsibilty for fooking up. And please provide proof that the Government told our soldiers to arrest iraqi civilians with no proof. because so far your recent posts have had no proof or basis to support your arguement and thats a little immature don't you think?

Wrong. The actions taken by soldiers are in accordance to what they were taught by the government. You make it seem like they just put some people in Iraq and said "Quell the uprising." The soldiers are doing what they were trained to do. Even if they're not, that just means that the government didn't train them well enough and changes should be made to how the government manages the military.

He's right...

Terrorism is only relative, beheading people is inhumane in the eyes of Western cultures, yet having women merely reveal their faces in the Middle East is terrible for many of them too.

When I grow up I want to try to unite the Earth to create (considering that we ARE on SEN) a UED-like nation, so we can go out and conquer the aliens before they get us. If that fails, I'll go with Alpha's suggestion.

Half wrong, just got a letter from Brad Jenison from which I e-mailed him and asked him - Who is responsible for a soldiers conduct out in the field?, he said and I quote, "What me and my unit does reflects upon our commanding officer in the field, but we take responsibilty for our own actions"

So I geuss if a soldier messes up in anyway, he is responsible for what he did, but the commanding officer in the field does have some fault.

Bush doesn't write up a "what to do when fired at" hand book. The Military is its own, how you say, business. With experienced men and women come up with training methods and they train our soldiers, which is basic training. then you go on to a more specific training for your roll in the army/navy/air force. Our soldiers are trained to be the best and brightest, but only follow orders. If a soldier is ordered to do something, and it ends up causing problems, then the officer who gave the order is at fault.

So I am half wrong. Bush is not at fault for any miss leads that are cause for unjustifiable arrests if he didn't order them specifically. Theres a ranking system, if there is a finger to point, you point it at the person you gave the order to arrest those people or the officer who told the soldier to arrest some one.

Yes, our military REALLY needs to reform. We kick ass against other modern country armies that are set on battle fields, but we suck at gurilla war fare. It happened in Vietnam, its happening in Iraq.

Abu Gharib anyone? They're "supposed" to take their own responsibility, but how many do you actually think do?

Well, that one ugly soldier chick is going to jail, I don't know about the others...

Bullshit. What a soldier does is the responsibility of his commanders, no matter what. If an American soldier kills an innocent Iraqi civilian, it's the government's fault for putting the soldier in a position where he would have to do such a thing. Plain and simple. You can't act like America isn't responsible for the actions of its military. If America put the soldiers in Iraq, their actions are America's responsibility.

AHHH GOD, if a soldier raped an iraqi women, then according to you, its the commander's fault. mmmmm

And if any commander is to be blamed its the one IN THE FIELD that day. Nozomu, you cannot blame the government ON EVERYTHING. They have little control over specific actions in a war that is going on thousands of miles away. And its the officer in the field that day who's fault for putting the soldier in position where he would have done such a thing.

And NEWS FLASH, usually the soldiers are the ones that go to jail for long periods of time and the officers maybe go for a few months....THATS JUST HOW IT IS, its unfair but thats how it is.

The government didn't train our soldiers to arrest innocent Iraqi civilians. PERIOD, stop blaming everything that happens on the government.

Plus, i think I would know more then you seeing as I am a military nut.

Ya, the government isn't super human. They're just people....really smart rich people....sometimes......I would to be president one day, then just go into the white house, shoot all the guys trying to boss me around, then just go into a communist country, and just rambo the entire place. Like, a complete 1 man mission. Oh man, I so badly want a bandanna right now.

I'm not talking about soliders arresting people in Iraq, I'm talking about the lists of Arabic American citizens John Ashcroft made, who were promptly arrested and thrown in jail without a trial or date of release.

well, you said Iraqi....naturally any one would think your talking about Iraq

If the American government puts soldiers in a situation where they act inappropriately, then they have made a mistake in not training their soldiers properly. The actions of our army, no matter how small, are a direct respresentation of the American presence to the people being occupied. It's the government's responsibility to make sure inappropriate incidents don't happen, but instead the government condones it (for example in Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay). No wonder the world hates Americans. People like you refuse to look at things from other countries' points of view. Thanks for poisoning the world against those of us who are willing to assess such situations as impartially and unsubjectively as possible. You've done a great job so far.

I guess you couldn't blame the Taliban for allowing terrorists to run free in Afghanistan, right? By your logic, the government is not responsible for the acts of its citizens, even in other countries. Try and get out of that contradiction.

The Taliban worked with Al Quada and harbored them. Thus we take them out. Plus Osoma Bin Landon was Saudi, not Aphgani, get it right.

You time and time again don't see the difference between citizens in general and civilians. I see our soldiers as citizens of America but not a civilians. Terrorists in my mind are no civilians.

Government is only reasponsible for ORDERD events. Such as we are responislbe for Iraqi War becuase we ORDERD the invasion. The Government is also only responsible for specific TRAINING problems. Such as the government DID NOT train any cop or soldier to specificlly arrest arabic americans. The Government did NOT order our soldiers to abuse the inmates in Abu Ghraib. You have no idea the ranking system of our military or the military court system or even the laws in which fault can be pointed. The women soldier (she sickens me, Im not going to name her) IS RESPONSIBLE for her actions at abu Ghraib, the commander in charge at Ghraib is being demoted. The government is not responsible for this, if you were the president and some little punk citizen of yours goes to another country and kills 23 people, are you responsible for that shit head?

As for Guantanamo Bay. Prisoners only get basic rights. The Right of Shelter, Food, Water and Protection. These people are terrorists and only deserve those rights. Some aren't terrorists and have rightously been sent back to their home land. I fully support the tortures we use against those terrorist scums in Guantanamo Bay, if one evil man's pain will save thousands of civilian and military lives in America and abroad, then I am all for it.

You think I am poisening the world for trying to kill known terrorists? THEY DON"T CARE ABOUT ANYTHING BUT THEMSLEVES, they WON'T see any difference between me OR you. They will kill us both FOR FUN. So I am the guy finally shooting back at them and you and your hippie like thinking are yelling in my hear that I am poisening the world for defending myself? please.....next time a building is hit by a terrorist I will use you as a human shield, becuase thats all your good for. To win this war means violence, violence has solved more issues through out history then any other factor, as bad as that sounds its true.

Terrorists are: A. NOT KILLING FOR FUN. The intention is to terrorize, hence the term Terrorists. B. Human, not the souless consciousless monsters you make them out to be. I admit, they are bad, but I seriously doubt every single one of them are heartless killing monsters who never regret a single action. Hey, you called me a hippie and said all I was good for is as a human shield, yet me posting a link to a sight that shows the archtypes of forum posters is out of line?

if I quoted Nozomu, obviously I am talking to him, plus -- YOU DON"T KNOW that they are not killing for fun/enjoy it. In Al Quada's trianing manuel it has some very interesting sentences that show how much they like killing non-muslems.

JUST BECUASE YOU don't like the thought of killing poeple DOESN'T mean that terrorists don't like to.

Ahhhh, liberal idiots...

God help us.

Yes because the commander pretty much either sat there and didn't notice or went ahead and let them, either way is a bad action.

You don't seem to be listening to anything except that little voice inside you that makes you think you are right and everyone else is wrong.

Actually they do, it happens at the very start. The training of a soldier should train them enough to know what is a civilian, and what is an armed terrorist shooting at them, you pretty much act as if the soldiers recieve no training at all and are just random people thrown into the war. Heading back to arguments at the start of this topic, it turns out that there are many cases where soldiers shoot civilians for a couple of laughs. You simply act as if lives are just little tokens, and if it's something good you are buying, then go ahead and spend all those tokens. Other people around you have lives also, would you feel so great if you were in the middle of a war you aren't even part of, and some guy went "Oh look it's a white guy let's shoot him it will be funny."

The thing is, I am right. Its just that simple, I wouldn't being talking right now if I didn't think I am right and I only think your wrong when you bring up radical ideas with no proof.

You also seem to know little or nothing about in field action and how things are organized. Commanding officers are NOT always with their troops. They don't have leashes on their troops, soldiers aren't children, but some are very dirty men. This kind of crap happens a lot.

Please provide evidence of our soldiers shooting civilians for a couple of laughs please.....you can't say shit like that and not have evidence to prove it. And Im talking about real evidence, not some liberal blogger(example).

And you are also jumping to conclusions as to you think I think Iraqi people are nothing? HAHA what a laugh......simple dancing around the topic by a bad debater. Why would I support freeing them from a tyrant and think that the are worth nothing? I could easyly say you think Iraqi lives don't matter and all you care about is yourself, that they don't deserve to have a chance to be free. But I haven't....

Plus, if you are smart as you seem, soldiers ALWAYS say how they survived was their training and their buddies on thier left and right. I do believe we have the BEST trained military in the world. But I said that YOU and YOUR debating side haven't provided evidence that our government SPECIFICLLY trains our military and police to target and arrest arabic and iraqi civilians with no evidence, which you guys STILL haven't given me.

Also, in the heat of battle, your pumped with adrenilen (I think thats how you spell it) and in this state an Iraqi/arabic civilian will look very similar to an arabic/Iraqi terrorist.....and I take that from Brad Jenison my Ranger buddy who lives accross the street from me. Bad things happen DEAL WITH IT, its just war....

STARS. You are a right wig nut job, I'm sorry. So let me get this straight... they're killing people because they enjoy it... if you enjoy killing people, (murderers), you're going to hide that so no one knows, so you can keep on killing people. When you film it and send it around the internet, then you're doing it to get a reaction, IE terror, IE, TERRORISM. You've failed to grasp that concept, that sometimes people don't kill for justice or pleasure, but for reaction.

You leftys ALWAYS STATE THE OBVIOUS, god.... your like children I have to explain everything.

OF COURSE THEY TERRORIZE PEOPLE BECUASE THEY ARE TERRORISTS, its what they do. Im saying many enjoy what they are doing!!!!!! You can have a job and enjoy your job!!!!!

When I was saying they enjoy killing us, which they do, I was hoping you guys were smart enough know that. (you can have a job you do and enjoy to do it)

you righties always state the obvious....BURN THE NIGERS!!!!!

Me personally, I'm a moderate, just don't be hating liberals and not expect any of them to talk back. Cause you see, liberals are generally pussies (In the sense that they usually think before they fight, which usually results in them not fighting), they need moderates to stand up for em time to time. (For all you liberals, I was being in general)

Radical ideas hmm? Yes there is no proof at all that soldiers like to kill people for fun. Everything I said is radical and agrees with no one in this whole forum.

I do believe you are some over-patriotic teen who joined the army and only knows about what happens in the military and not in politics. I do believe that America definitely, I mean definitely, does NOT have the best trained military in the world. Whoa i just can't help laughing at that.

Soldiers aren't men, but perverted teens who weren't accepted in better jobs and/or want to kill people without having to go to jail. This is excepting people who were in the military before 1990, those people are true patriots.

So soldiers are completely different.. I see.... so you are saying it is impossible for a soldier to enjoy killing people. A soldier is the same as your version of a terrorist if he/she enjoys killing people, the only difference is that the soldier is doing it legally and it makes it seem ok. It is not ok to kill people for fun.

You are not getting the point. If the commander is NOT always with his/her troops, then that is a bad act on their side, it's like leaving a bunch of kids at Saturday school in a dark room with no parents.

As for the soldiers killing innocents for fun, it was on the news, so why don't you actually look at the war before commenting about it. Before ending this, let me give you a little hint, all of us are completely wrong and have no fact at all, our ideas are radical and have nothing to do with anyone else's, and we are stupid and have no idea about anything at all. Look in a mirror before you speak.


BTW There is a spell check you know, let me quote Tec_Ghost from a while ago.
"Learn to spell before you argue with the big boys."

Never said you guys are wrong, just wrong when you bring something up with no proof.

And what news channel would that be that our soldiers kill for fun? PROOF PLEASE

Difference between Soldiers and Terrorists. Terrorist target civilians, nation leaders, assisination-worth targets, everybody who they think is not on their side. Soldiers target other soldiers, militia, every combatant. Mistakes happen on both sides.

And when you say soldiers aren't men, I would like to see you say that to any soldier in any country.

I also NEVER SAID soldiers don't enjoy killing people, don't know where that came from.

You are also very stupid to think its bad for commanders to not watch their troops 24/7. They have other things to DO!!!!

I also NEVER SAID all your ideas are radical, but when some are and you have no proof, thats when I think you are wrong.

and you are also very stupid to think Im in the military, cause my profile clearly states Im only 17, and you must be 18 to be in the military.

AND there is nothing wrong with being a nationalist.
nothing wrong with being overly-patriotic.

AND ABOVE ALL ELSE, before you start talking about terrorists and their ideas and what they fight for you must read the Al Quada training handbook that clearly states their motives and other interesting details.......I am far better knowledged on them then you guys are.

Plus, almost all news channels are either telling us how sucky out country is, or how great our country is, and very controled and filtered. i don't fully trust the news channels these days. I would rather get first hand accounts by my Ranger friend.

And saying soldiers are perverted teens makes that statement randical becuase AGAIN you have nothing to back that up. If you start talking about the Abu prison situation, that was a women and women commander, both weren't teens, both are scum bags.

finally America, at the present, has THE best trained military in the world, THE best military in the world, and THE most powerful military in the world. Many other countries come close, and soon America WILL NOT have a great Military, Im talking about presently.

No, we do have the best trained military in the entire world. We train them to kill, not to have morals. Silly you.

Like my mom said, warfare is now depersonalized, meaning that everyone barely has to look at the general outline of someone else to kill them, instead of getting rather close to do the job. And Chris, you sound like a teen that is misinformed, and I feel very bad for you. Quick guys, let's turn into China and get like 1.5 billion people in several decades! We can do it! That way we can just screw the entire world over! /Sarcasm. What other nation comes close to our militaristic strength? China? Their equipment isn't of our caliber. We have many more nukes. Game over. Besides China is like 80% rural at this point. That means rural and simplistic. Add that in with poverty, famine, etc. and you don't have a pretty picture. So 20% of their population is modernized. That's about our population no? (Completely random figure that sounded good there)

Russia has neither the manpower nor the equipment anymore.

I can't think of any other countries that come close to our power.