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That's a good plan, but I think instead of just trying to get a map accepted, we should wait until we have a really good map, and then go from there. That way, we won't ruin our reputation, even if we don't get selected for season 4. If we get selected, though, it could be a news item, and would certainly generate publicity for melee games.

But most of all, we should wait until we have a A+ map.

I never said it was harder, I said it was different. I'm just saying that maybe UMS map triggering has it's little quirks that you are not familiar with. Sure you would catch on quickly, but you might not figure it all out on your own.

I'm sure it has it's quirks, but that doesn't make it more of a challenge than creating good melee maps. There have been many fewer great melee maps than great ums maps.

Maybe because around here UMS is more popular therefore it has more "experts"

I guess I didn't reply.... huh??

What I sorta said was:



Most good melee maps are made by a few people (lupin, rose of dream, bill, etc.). But back on topic:

I can't believe you breezed over my other post so easily.

Do you think that programming is easier than UMS? Do you think it doesn't have it's quirks?

I didn't "breeze" past your post. Both are different and before you can have your opinion have some validity you have to actually be proficient at making UMS maps, or else you would be saying Melee is better than UMS which you have no experience with.

What do you mean?

Are you saying it's easier to make games than it is to make UMS maps? Are you saying that I wouldn't know that programming is harder than UMS making because I don't know how to make a UMS? An average newb can't program, but the average newb can make a UMS map.

ADDITION:
To add to that: UMS isn't different from programming except for the fact that it's extremely watered down.

I think that physician's news item is a great way to bring publicity to melee map making.

I just wish the rules were less strict (like I said in the thread, coulee would not be allowed into the contest), but that obviously isn't his fault.

It doesn't matter how simple it is, you still haven't proven that you can make a GOOD UMS Map. Anyone can learn and understand all the triggers, but can they put them together in a good map? Bnet is full of UMS maps, but most of them are crap.

If you are talking about making it fun, than there should be no doubt that it's easier making a fun mini game than it is making a fun and balanced melee map. Anyone could make a fun simple game to play, give me a break.

Sorry to bust in here, but I don't see why you're making such a big deal of this issue. I mean, I personally find melee games to be incredibly boring and repetitive. So who cares which is harder to make? Though, for the record, I see very little creativity in balancing melee maps for each race, versus doing whatever the hell comes to your mind for UMS games. Honestly, to most of us straightedge UMSers, melee map-making is even more boring than melee itself. If you're desperate for more people to start making melee maps, you're probably going to have to go outside the UMS community on this site. We're here because of a specialized interest, and people take any intrusion that threatens to diminish interest in UMS very seriously.

That's because you suck ass at starcraft, obviously. Also, what games have you watched? Do you even know how to play? Unless all you play is the same matchup on LT, the game is anything but repetitive,



Again, you don't understand the game. Come back when you do.



I'm not desperate, we have plenty of good maps +makers., I'm really trying to, in fact, "diminish interest in UMS". Or, to be more accurate, I'm trying to rob you UMSers of your giant egos. You think starcraft is mostly UMS, and that's what keeps it alive. The exact opposite is true.

It takes more work then you think.

Also I'm not necessarily saying UMS is harder than Melee. I'm just saying your points aren't based on experience with UMS. You are making statements based on something you have little experience with and the only thing close to it you use as an excuse to make it look like you know what you are talking about is the fact that you can program with something is loosely similar UMS triggering, even if its harder.

I also think you have a giant ego, making statements that make it look like you actually have made a good UMS map, and know how to trigger.

It's also interesting that I only have to reply to comments about how Melee > UMS, because no one hear is really saying UMS > Melee, and making comments with no support. Other than Nozomu who recently posted.



You don't understand UMS, come back when you do. As in say that Melee is better than UMS when you actually have tried UMS mapmaking thoroughly.

Debating whether Melee is harder to make than UMS is just like Debating whether God exists or not; they go nowhere.

But i'm sure some of yall just love that

I love playing devil's advocate

What the fuuck in UMS is there to understand? It's baby-programming!!

This is a beatifully written smart-pointer in C++, so most code doesn't look like this:



Programming is harder.

I know how to program, and I know how to design games. Neither rquire the skill it requires to make balanced maps, unless you are talking about actual large projects. Most of the difficulty is in the length of time it takes and in staying motivated.

Still haven't shown you can make a UMS map, with triggers. Also, it doesn't matter if programming is harder. It only matters if UMS triggering is harder than Melee.

So what are you saying, programming > UMS, but melee > programming?

No, quote where what I said would lead to that.

I am saying melee -> programming ---> UMS in terms of skill, but programming -> ums -> melee in terms of time.

It doesn't matter whether I have made a UMS or not. It's someone who walked 5 miles telling someone who ran 50 that he will never understand how hard it is to walk 5.

No your example is just bad. A better example for my case would be is telling some superstar athlete who can run 50 easily, but is in perfect shape that he will never understand how hard it is for a crippled person to walk that.

No, that is a god-aweful analogy.

In my case, two equal people are doing two unequal tasks, which is exactly what we are talking about.

In your case, two unequal people are doing two unequal tasks, which is nothing like what we are talking about.

Alright two equal people are doing two unequal tasks, so tell me, how is the other person supposed to relate to the other task if they are "unequal". You proved my point. Programming and triggering, even though they share similarities, they are also different.

Also instead of trying to tell me that Programming is harder than UMS, even though you haven't even tried UMS, why don't you actually try to support the actually argument that Melee is harder than UMS, based on something that actually has to do between the two.

Also, why the hell are you insisting on the fact that Programming > UMS. It obviously does, but the point is you can't use that as proof that Melee > UMS.

You're a real dense one.






I can relate because UMS is very similar to programming, except it's watered down, and hence stripped of features.


Yes, they are different in that one is easier, and not much else. Triggers are all programming functions done for you, but there isn't much else besides the absolute basics that you are able to do.



I am supporting melee's case by saying that in general programming is easier (though more time consuming and frustrating) than making a balanced melee map. UMS being easier than melee would logically follow.

edit: typos

the term "watered down" is funny. You do realize that UMS isn't ALL about triggers. There are things such as locations, which can be used in ways you probably don't even know about.

Also the fact that it is watered down makes you think out of the box, because in trigger form action/condition. You don't have every action and condition you want and therefore have to create something new out of them. Which you can not possibly relate to because you have no experience with UMS, so don't even compare it to programming.

This basically relates to your lack of knowledge about UMS and your comparison to Programming based on your lack of knowledge to UMS and stereotypical generalizations about it.

Another thing, frustration also adds to the fact that it could be harder. How the hell does it frustrate you and be easy? Even if you are searching for some stupid bug that you might overlook, and the answer might be easy, nevertheless the frustration adds to how hard it is.

Yes, I'm dense, I'm dense enough to deflect lots of bs that isn't backed up. You haven't made a single point that has appealed to me. That is why I still do not agree. I can support Melee just as easily as UMS, but for now, while you keep making replies like this with proof that is useless, I will continue to argue the opposition.

If you think that all there is to programming is mindlessly typing out code, then maybe it's you who has to read up on a new subject. I know more about UMS than you think, as I often browse those forums when I'm bored. I understand the kind of hacks you are forced to do, and if you think that programming is free of those than you are insane. And since programming involves higher level things like path-finding, you often have to think about what the hell it is you are doingl.



It's you who has that problem.



I'll hold out in hope that you are not this stupid. Mind-numbing tasks are often frustrating. They take very little mental ability, but you can get bored, annoyed, and stat making mistakes you otherwise wouldn't.

Back to melee, balancing a map requires you to adress about so many factors at once about the entire map in general and about specific parts of the map. Making a fun and balanced map requires more intelligence than making a UMS map.

Simply put, you can't say that because you haven't made a UMS map. Also you think that UMS has no factors involved?



UMS triggering isn't mindnumbing all the time. Hell I can say Melee terraining is mindnumbing as well.



Wow you can read up on stuff! Amazing. Too bad that doesn't prove a damn thing unless you actually experience and try it for yourself. If you can't apply what you know then your comments have no credibility.