Staredit Network

Anyone who trades liberty for security deserves neither liberty nor
security

> Q: I just don't know. There's too much tradition in this country, too many good people, too many safeguards, for fascism to get established. I just think that it can't happen here.

A: I wonder what the good German people in 1932 thought about fascism, and then I look at what it meant to be a good German by 1935. A good German in 1935 kept his mouth shut and didn't dare say a word against the Nazi Regime. They closed their eyes as Jews, Communists, and homosexuals where dragged of to concentration camps. Are we there yet?  No, but we're moving in that direction quickly and quietly. What has changed over the past five years that indicates a fascist trajectory?

    * We have a president that was selected rather than elected.
    * We are aggressively waging war on a country based on lies.
    * We are ignoring international laws and torturing people who may be guilty of nothing more than defending themselves.
    * The president select has given himself the right to detain anyone, on the merest suspicion, with no right to due process.
    * The president select uses medieval religious fundamentalism to determine policies on birth control, abortion, and basic rights of gays and lesbians.
    * A mouthpiece of Bush, David Horowitz, has spies in Universities across the country shutting down progressive teaching in the classrooms.
    * A mouthpiece of Bush, William Bennett, makes racist public statements that "crime would decrease if we aborted all black babies" and Bush only stated that the comment was "inappropriate."
      Replacing a day of rescue after Katrina with a day of prayer, as the military hijacked all the rescue buses to "secure the territory."

Replacing AIDS education and condoms with prayer and abstanence only programs which is nothing less than genocide.    This is clearly a new direction and it's moving quickly.  Hitler's fascism was based on nationalism and "racial purity" Bush's fascism is based on biblical law and obedience. Even Catherine Crier, a former republican Judge in Texas, states in her book exposing the religious elements in government, "Be afraid, be very afraid." Theocrats are infiltrating some of the highest positions in government, generally through appointments made by Bush. Those in positions of power that aren't theocrats are doing nothing to stop this trajectory.

Chris, you need to learn about the Patriot Act, abuses and the 30,000 NSL issued per year without probable cause.

The question right now is, do you value your civil liberties over security? Since you are a conservative (I assume), I can safely assume you would rather have security than civil liberties.

You know who else gave up their rights for "security"? The Nazis. They obeyed unquestioningly for "security". I quote security because they weren't secure and neither are you. What you have here is a classic case of (what I call) "hollow hope". This means you think you're safe when you're not.

By giving up civil liberties, you have also destroyed any link between you and the foundation of this country. Why? What do you think was the cause of the Revolution? Not security, I can assure you of that. People sacrificed themselves so that we may maintain our rights.

This proves that people are willing to do everything in order to protect that which founded this country. Are you willing to lose this priviledge just because you're afraid of death? A death that isn't likely to occur?

Just remember, civil liberty are always more important than security as I quote Benjamin Franklin:
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The way alot of soldiers are stereotyped is funny to me. The only soldiers that make the news are the young jock guys (who were football captains) that have a young wife and a baby, and go to church all the time. A lot of the soldiers (I'd say most) are probably bitter about having to go there. I doubt most of them are married and have kids. A lot of the ones that are there because they want to be are psychotic and would've wound up in jail for shooting somebody were it not for the military. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate what they do, but I think America's view of a soldier's life is way too romantic and fake.
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Oh cheeze no no no, what I'm saying is personnally I love our rights and thats what makes America, America.  But with times like these I don't like the patriot act, but for the time being I don't mind it being around.  You must remember that the exact text from the consitution is unreasonable searches, which the government would NOT spend the money to search YOUR house if they didn't have probable causes, which would make their search of your house reasonable.

And our government has been spying on us with out court approval for years, before the patriot act. 

And please correct me if Im wrong in saying theres nothing in the constitution for the right to privacy, but there is a right to no unreasonable government searches of your home.
None of us will know until we experience it our selves.
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And our government has been spying on us with out court approval for years, before the patriot act.[right][snapback]384256[/snapback][/right]

But with times like these I don't like the patriot act, but for the time being I don't mind it being around.

You must remember that the exact text from the consitution is unreasonable searches, which the government would NOT spend the money to search YOUR house if they didn't have probable causes, which would make their search of your house reasonable.

And our government has been spying on us with out court approval for years, before the patriot act.

Times like these? Tell me what good comes out of the current status quo:

-The Government is above the law.
-You have lost your 4th amendment rights; potentially, your 1st amendment rights.
-You think this new found power of the government will protect you.
Correct. The Constitution does say a search would require probable cause. So where's the problem? Simple. The Patriot Act has given the Government the power to declare any person a "terrorist", thus linking them to "national security" issues, thus having probable cause to search them.

But wait! Let me repeat that. They have the power to declare a person to be a terrorist. I cannot emphasize this enough; they literally have the power to point to any person and declare them a terrorist because they may have said "I dislike the government."

Since this is a big claim:
Source: http://www.aclu.org//natsec/emergpowers/14...eg20021206.html
Then why did we implement the Patriot Act in the first place? It's not simply for spying; it has literally exponentially raised the power of searches and seizures for the government.

Unless you're going to tell me that this new found power of the government is what you want? In which case, I would go back to my arguement on the foundation of this country and how it compares to Nazi Germany.
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www.worldcantwait.org
(this ends up leading to www.worldcantwait.net, just type in www.worldcantwait.org/faq.html)
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ACLU = I don't even want to go into what they are all about...

Cheeze, new found power? They have always had this power, get that into your head, except now its more official.

times like these is what Im calling sleeper cells in the United States and there are hundreds of them... Stop thinking your so safe...

The patriot act is obviously working, have we had a terrorist attack on American soil in 9/11? Nope

And the government doesn't declare any American just a terrorist for kicks.

They get a lead, the lead leads to you, they spy on you, you happen to just be an intelligent SENer, they then leave you alone. Thats pretty much what happens...

STOP COMPARING US TO THE FARKING NAZIs, THIS IS THE UNITED STATES!!!!!!!!!! THE SUPREME POWER ON EARTH, WE CREATED THE IDEA OF FREEDOM, WE MADE IT REAL, WE WANT TO SPREAD THAT IDEA,

you can just sit there and complain about having 8 years of having 1 right taken advantage of that HASN'T PERSONNALLY effected you in anyway.

    * We have a president that was selected rather than elected.
    * We are aggressively waging war on a country based on lies.
    * We are ignoring international laws and torturing people who may be guilty of nothing more than defending themselves.
    * The president select has given himself the right to detain anyone, on the merest suspicion, with no right to due process.
    * The president select uses medieval religious fundamentalism to determine policies on birth control, abortion, and basic rights of gays and lesbians.
    * A mouthpiece of Bush, David Horowitz, has spies in Universities across the country shutting down progressive teaching in the classrooms.
    * A mouthpiece of Bush, William Bennett, makes racist public statements that "crime would decrease if we aborted all black babies" and Bush only stated that the comment was "inappropriate."
      Replacing a day of rescue after Katrina with a day of prayer, as the military hijacked all the rescue buses to "secure the territory."

The ACLU takes official interpretations of the Constitution and Rights people have and make sure they're not being abused nor taken away. Are you going to tell me you're against a group of people who are unbiased and will do everything to support your right?
Wrong. They have more power because of the Patriot Act. The Patriot Act has given the federal government virtually unlimited search powers.

How so? President Bush has admitted to searching without warrents; this has never happened before. Ever. Are you going to tell me the Federal Government had the power to search without warrents before? If so, then the status quo has no effect. If not, then you have nullified your own arguement by saying they've always had this power.
Once again, it comes back to security verse civil liberty. Which one are you more concerned with? I have already shown why I would gladly die to preserve civil liberties. Why don't you show your Patriotism by helping the foundation of the country rather than the current system.
Two problems: Burden of Proof. Self-contradiction on Patriot Act's lack of expansion in power. Burden of Proof:
The Terrorists could be waiting for another attack at another time. Thus, leading to "hollow hope"; that you feel safer even though you're not. You willingly give up a right for security, even though the security isn't there.

Why this is also a flawed arguement by sheer logic:
The Patriot Act has given the Federal Government much more information. This isn't a good thing. There is such a thing as "too much information". Right now, they are blinded by useless information when the important ones are going right past them.
They can. They will. In fact, they already have. Look at Guantanamo Bay. It's full of people who are denied their rights simply because the government may think they're "terrorists".
Thus leading to my arguement on getting too much useless information; jamming themselves with it and not focusing on where the real problems lie.
Isn't it sad how you think you're all great and just and yet you have this huge anger problem where you feel it is neccessary to capitalize everything thinking it will make a bigger impact?

That's one of the reasons why I dislike those who are pretty far right.

As for your "arguement"; simply because we made this doesn't mean we can't destroy it. We made freedom, what's stopping us from destroying it? Nothing. Guess what, that's what the Government's doing right now. Destorying your freedom.

You want to spread that idea? Yeah, you want to spread that idea by killing thousands of innocent people of Iraq and Vietnam. You want to show your idea of freedom by scaring the public on what they can do. You want to tell the rest of the world that freedom is good by setting the opposite example.
Does it matter of the overall impact has affected (not effected) me or not? No. If it affects one person, it affects the population. Where else did we get the idea of equality? Until we are all unaffected, we are affected. The 30,000 NSL is proof that we are affected.
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Well it gets right down to this cheeze, I have nothing else to say, you beleive waht you beleive, and I believe what I beleive.

You and euro tend to think this is a subject that will grow, I tend to think it will dissolve once people stop talking about it and the threat of major terrorism is over and once Bush is out of office.

I don't see this as destorying America, I don't see how you could even compare our government with nazis

I just think your thinking is driven from hatred, pure hatred of Bush, you will beleive any website that agrees with you.

And I dislike people who try and criminalize the United States.

chris go to worldcantwait.org ... they would own you in a debate. Bush was selected no elected. Millions of people don't want him in office (or you at sen)

How is it not worth it? Tell that to our forefathers who fought for their freedom, for that little piece of paper! If they were alive today they would flat-out slap your ass till you cried home to mama! Well you know what? Not defending your rights or the constitution is un-american. Not disagreeing with the war, but not defending your most basic rights.

Heres a little quote from theodore roosevelt:
"Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president or any other public official, save exactly to the degree in which he himself stands by the country. It is patriotic to support him insofar as he efficiently serves the country. It is unpatriotic not to oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiency or otherwise he fails in his duty to stand by the country. In either event, it is unpatriotic not to tell the truth, whether about the president or anyone else."
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