Report, edit, etc...Posted by Zeratul_101 on 2006-08-20 at 21:45:15
i'll think about it, kholdstare. Phyrion also requested to be a tester, but i dislike sending out more than one PM.
anyhow, to answer pyro's question:
to absolutely clarify some things. this system is intended to reduce fractions to their lowest terms. the system does this using Euclid's Algorithm which finds the lowest common denominator of the fraction. Having found the LCD, i can divide into the fraction the traditional way.
note that due to a logic error, the death count will cycle from 5 to 7(skipping 6). the actions performed in DC 6 were one half of the logic error and were completely removed.
another note about how the system functions. this system is loop-based, therefore precautions must be taken to ensure only a certain loop or certain section of a loop is running in each trigger cycle. this loop control is achieved by using a DC, with each value representing a different loop. you'll notice that each trigger(well, 99.998% of them) has a player 1 has deaths of zergling. each death of zergling one represents part of the trig cycle(like mentioned above). i'll show you what each value performs what:
0 - the system's off button
1 - A minus B
2 - A minus Bb
3 - A = A + remainder of value left in B or Bb
4 - transfers P7 deaths into C
5 - moves C value into B / Bb
6 - this is removed
7 - moves B / Bb value into A
loop ends and goes back to 1 or 2
8 - (this is accessed when both A and B / Bb = 0 during DC 1 / 2)
a divided by B
9 - a divided by Bb
10 -(accessed when a = 0)
b divided by B
11 - b divided by Bb
12 - Quotients changed to mins and gas
note: if you're not a tester, its highly unlikely this will make sense to you.
for testers: if you still don't get it, i'll elaborate more... you don't want me to elaborate more...
ps, also, this 'guide' won't apply to the public release version(when it comes out
)
err, someone wanna make a banner for this thread - a good one? you'll get credit and some mins if you're chosen and its especially good
HorroR(Sean_Connery) and JoJo. have been removed as testers. testers section has been updated/modified.
ADDITION:
okay, time for some public opinion.
the current combat system involves using an observer as your targeter. now, would people prefer that as soon as you have 'a target in your sights' that the weapon start automatically firing or would you prefer a trigger button and manually fire it yourself?
anyhow, to answer pyro's question:
to absolutely clarify some things. this system is intended to reduce fractions to their lowest terms. the system does this using Euclid's Algorithm which finds the lowest common denominator of the fraction. Having found the LCD, i can divide into the fraction the traditional way.
note that due to a logic error, the death count will cycle from 5 to 7(skipping 6). the actions performed in DC 6 were one half of the logic error and were completely removed.
another note about how the system functions. this system is loop-based, therefore precautions must be taken to ensure only a certain loop or certain section of a loop is running in each trigger cycle. this loop control is achieved by using a DC, with each value representing a different loop. you'll notice that each trigger(well, 99.998% of them) has a player 1 has deaths of zergling. each death of zergling one represents part of the trig cycle(like mentioned above). i'll show you what each value performs what:
0 - the system's off button
1 - A minus B
2 - A minus Bb
3 - A = A + remainder of value left in B or Bb
4 - transfers P7 deaths into C
5 - moves C value into B / Bb
6 - this is removed
7 - moves B / Bb value into A
loop ends and goes back to 1 or 2
8 - (this is accessed when both A and B / Bb = 0 during DC 1 / 2)
a divided by B
9 - a divided by Bb
10 -(accessed when a = 0)
b divided by B
11 - b divided by Bb
12 - Quotients changed to mins and gas
note: if you're not a tester, its highly unlikely this will make sense to you.
for testers: if you still don't get it, i'll elaborate more... you don't want me to elaborate more...
ps, also, this 'guide' won't apply to the public release version(when it comes out
)err, someone wanna make a banner for this thread - a good one? you'll get credit and some mins if you're chosen and its especially good
HorroR(Sean_Connery) and JoJo. have been removed as testers. testers section has been updated/modified.
ADDITION:
okay, time for some public opinion.
the current combat system involves using an observer as your targeter. now, would people prefer that as soon as you have 'a target in your sights' that the weapon start automatically firing or would you prefer a trigger button and manually fire it yourself?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Pyro_Maniak14 on 2006-08-20 at 21:54:35
And this whole fractional reduction 'algorithm' is to make grenades bounce off walls? I sorta get it now, I'll experiment with it tomorrow when I have the time. And I'd rather have you move your observer and then have it automatically fire otherwise you'd be constantly moving stuff and hot keying everything making it hard to do anything... But how will you keep your observer from leaving your units firing range? More confusing triggers I suppose...
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Zeratul_101 on 2006-08-21 at 13:28:19
QUOTE(Pyro_Maniak14 @ Aug 20 2006, 07:54 PM)
And this whole fractional reduction 'algorithm' is to make grenades bounce off walls? I sorta get it now, I'll experiment with it tomorrow when I have the time.
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well, technically speaking, it doesn't help grenades bounce off walls in the slightest, its primarily an anti-bug feature for the trigger system that actually does make grenades bounce.
don't worry too much about experimenting, i'm creating my public version - which'll be quite a bit more powerful and more user interactive and friendly.
QUOTE(Pyro_Maniak14 @ Aug 20 2006, 07:54 PM)
I'd rather have you move your observer and then have it automatically fire otherwise you'd be constantly moving stuff and hot keying everything making it hard to do anything...
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noted. i'm leaning toward this as well. mainly because the 'trigger' feature would require EUD conditions, and fixing them every patch would be a pain.
QUOTE(Pyro_Maniak14 @ Aug 20 2006, 07:54 PM)
But how will you keep your observer from leaving your units firing range? More confusing triggers I suppose...
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lol, more confusing triggers ... its what i do best lol
ADDITION:
if you look in the OP under progress, you'll see a bar titled 'Doom 3 Secrets Research.' what that means is finding all the secret items, passageways, easter eggs of Doom 3. what i need is for some people to find them for me. any volunteers...?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Urmom(U) on 2006-08-21 at 14:38:06
Sorry I don't have Doom 3 so I couldn't help you out with that. Sorry that I haven't been able to test the map much for you, my cousins have been visiting for a few days from Maine.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by JaFF on 2006-08-21 at 15:28:04
About the targeting system:
-I would prefer a Scourge instead of an Observer because it's faster
-Make it auto fire because otherwise simply shooting will become a pain in the ass
-I would really want to see you make a defiler shooting system, because it's a 1 player map anyway. I will make it more shoot-alike if you ask me.
-I would prefer a Scourge instead of an Observer because it's faster
-Make it auto fire because otherwise simply shooting will become a pain in the ass
-I would really want to see you make a defiler shooting system, because it's a 1 player map anyway. I will make it more shoot-alike if you ask me.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Urmom(U) on 2006-08-21 at 15:32:59
I would have to agree with Jammed on the scourge aiming idea. The auto fire seems like a good idea too.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Zeratul_101 on 2006-08-22 at 01:58:44
IRT urmom
thats alright, Jammed's been good help so far. the only people i had problems with were JoJo. and HorroR. they didn't answer back any of my PMs or post in this thread
okay, scourge is fine, i originally picked observer cause its invisible, but w/e(although i'm a bit worried the scourge would be a little too quick - keep in mind you're usually in tight hallways and small rooms).
i agree with auto-firing.
i don't wanna make a darkswarm firing system because the defiler is simply way too large(i put alot of effort in using only porportionately sized units). also, it'd seem like i'm copying Rush too much.
lol, my bad, i just remembered i already had the scourge reserved to be a missile. in this case, would people prefer using an observer(which is slower) or a scourge(which is identical to a rocket). i can't substitute the scourge as the missile.
FYI, this is how the currently planned combat system works:
you have your 'hero'
you have your reticle(observer/scourge)
both of the above have their own hotkey
both of the above move independently
when an enemy is under the observer, it'll will 'lock-in' on the target and maneuver itself to stay 'locked-in' on the target
the above actions result in you being able to manually maneuver your hero from the enemy attacks
just so you know, this fractional reducer you've all been hearing about(and the lucky ones seeing
) is a part of the Grid-Based Location Calculators' slope and object deflection(grenade bouncing) feature. the GBLC will be featured in both isometrical terrain and square terrain. the square terrain's grid will be straight horizontal and vertical. whereas the ISOM terrain's grid will be diamond-shaped with a slope of 1/2 for the Y-axis and a slope of 1/-2 for the X-axis. Doom 3: HOM will use the rectangular version.
thats alright, Jammed's been good help so far. the only people i had problems with were JoJo. and HorroR. they didn't answer back any of my PMs or post in this thread
okay, scourge is fine, i originally picked observer cause its invisible, but w/e(although i'm a bit worried the scourge would be a little too quick - keep in mind you're usually in tight hallways and small rooms).
i agree with auto-firing.
i don't wanna make a darkswarm firing system because the defiler is simply way too large(i put alot of effort in using only porportionately sized units). also, it'd seem like i'm copying Rush too much.
lol, my bad, i just remembered i already had the scourge reserved to be a missile. in this case, would people prefer using an observer(which is slower) or a scourge(which is identical to a rocket). i can't substitute the scourge as the missile.
FYI, this is how the currently planned combat system works:
you have your 'hero'
you have your reticle(observer/scourge)
both of the above have their own hotkey
both of the above move independently
when an enemy is under the observer, it'll will 'lock-in' on the target and maneuver itself to stay 'locked-in' on the target
the above actions result in you being able to manually maneuver your hero from the enemy attacks
just so you know, this fractional reducer you've all been hearing about(and the lucky ones seeing
) is a part of the Grid-Based Location Calculators' slope and object deflection(grenade bouncing) feature. the GBLC will be featured in both isometrical terrain and square terrain. the square terrain's grid will be straight horizontal and vertical. whereas the ISOM terrain's grid will be diamond-shaped with a slope of 1/2 for the Y-axis and a slope of 1/-2 for the X-axis. Doom 3: HOM will use the rectangular version.Report, edit, etc...Posted by JaFF on 2006-08-22 at 03:20:17
-I would use the defiler nomatter what 
It is the best firing system there can be without EUD's.
-If you still don't want to make it a defiler... fine. Use the scourge because the obsewrver is too slow, and if a fast enemy (zergling/fast zealot) runs toward you, the observer may be left behind, or turn too slow for the target.
Question: if you "lock-in" on a target, and understand that you must choose another target, can it be done without problems ?
It is the best firing system there can be without EUD's.-If you still don't want to make it a defiler... fine. Use the scourge because the obsewrver is too slow, and if a fast enemy (zergling/fast zealot) runs toward you, the observer may be left behind, or turn too slow for the target.
Question: if you "lock-in" on a target, and understand that you must choose another target, can it be done without problems ?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Zeratul_101 on 2006-08-22 at 11:35:21
the dark swarm system's range is much too short and has movement/attack issues(the same ones tux has been trying to compensate for)
so, you still prefer the scourge even though it will still look like weapon projectiles(rockets)?
i'm still debating specifics for un-'locking-in'. originally, when your observer LI, it would be given to another computer player. your observer would be moved away to a 'holding cell'. to unLI, you'd simply order it to move. now, i'm thinking of having another observer do the moving. while your observer would follow this new one. when your observer was not in the same spot as the new observer, it would disable the LI.
so, you still prefer the scourge even though it will still look like weapon projectiles(rockets)?
i'm still debating specifics for un-'locking-in'. originally, when your observer LI, it would be given to another computer player. your observer would be moved away to a 'holding cell'. to unLI, you'd simply order it to move. now, i'm thinking of having another observer do the moving. while your observer would follow this new one. when your observer was not in the same spot as the new observer, it would disable the LI.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Pyro_Maniak14 on 2006-08-22 at 22:05:03
The locking in idea is cool but what if you're against multiple enemies and you want to shoot the strongest one first and kill it so the rest will be easier, the lock-on idea would probably just choose the closest enemy. The observer is also pretty slow and couldn't you just use the observer for the missle or something... As for the fractional reducer (FR)... what if it DOESN'T end up working... eh? What then? Or are you desperate to have it in your map that if it doesn't work you won't finish your map... because you could always -not- have grenades bounce... eh?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Zeratul_101 on 2006-08-23 at 11:30:24
QUOTE(Pyro_Maniak14 @ Aug 22 2006, 08:04 PM)
The locking in idea is cool but what if you're against multiple enemies and you want to shoot the strongest one first and kill it so the rest will be easier, the lock-on idea would probably just choose the closest enemy. The observer is also pretty slow and couldn't you just use the observer for the missle or something
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you have to perform an action before it locks a target beneath it. to unlock, just press the hotkey for your reticle and move it.
the observer is pretty fast when it has its speed upgrade though(not as fast as a scourge, but still). i can't use the observer as a rocket because its already another projectile(fireball).
actually, now that you mention this, i've got an idea for headshots and such.
there would be two modes of firing, standard and guided:
standard is where you must control both your reticle and your unit. standard mode has a higher percentage of headshots(which do more damage) or the ability to do head shots period.
guided is with the previously mentioned 'lock-in' where you only have to maneauver your unit. guided mode features better maneauverability and therefore less chance of being hit.
what do you think of this system? the player can choose in battle which mode he perfers.
QUOTE(Pyro_Maniak14 @ Aug 22 2006, 08:04 PM)
As for the fractional reducer (FR)... what if it DOESN'T end up working... eh? What then? Or are you desperate to have it in your map that if it doesn't work you won't finish your map... because you could always -not- have grenades bounce... eh?
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what do you mean not working... it already does... lol, believe me, I WILL have grenades bouncing, even if its only marginally noticable/effective. i spent 2 1/2 months out of 5 of the 'ideas' phase trying to think of how i could make it work.
ps when i say bouncing, i mean off walls. although it wouldn't be too hard to include vertical bouncing.
yes, i know i said the FR would be releasedtoday(wednesday). but i couldn't finish it off yesterday cause i went to the amusement park
. so i'll probly finish it on friday now.now that i think about it, crouch-jump is gonna be a pain, hell, i can't even do it in the game
. i guess i'm gonna have to include a time allowance.anyhow, i still need someone to do find all the game secrets and such... anyone... at all...?
does anyone wanna see a vertical measurement system? where objects will move veritcally with different profiles. a grenade being thrown would follow an arc(where it would be horizontal, rise vertically, return to its starting elevation, before finally depressing and hitting the ground) and a missile would go in a straight line(steadily losing elevation).
lol, more work for me, i'm gonna try to find an effective way to include pythagoreom theorum into my GBLC. lol, that system's gonna be HUGE in the final release. i'm gonna make it do my math homework
also, estimated release date is about 1-2 years. i just can't get enough time to devote to mapmaking to finish this any earlier. in the meantime i'll keep you people updated on mapping progress with my alpha maps. betas however will be completely closed to the public.
ADDITION:
so would you prefer seeing a height-based system or the reflective portion of the GBLC(grenades bouncing) done fist?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Xx.Doom.xX on 2006-08-23 at 13:21:36
I like how you were very descriptive, this looks like a great map. Please add me to the Tester List.
Those features for the trigger system look awesome too, and will go great with the map!
Those features for the trigger system look awesome too, and will go great with the map!
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Zeratul_101 on 2006-08-23 at 20:54:30
well, at the moment, theres no point in being a tester, i'm working on the public release version of the FR. so theres no new triggers systems to test.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Pyro_Maniak14 on 2006-08-23 at 21:19:16
Wow... you just horde yourself with loads and loads of trigger work... Lobbing missiles, bouncing grenades, and crouch jumping... This map can't just be normal can it?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Zeratul_101 on 2006-08-24 at 01:45:21
QUOTE
a test of personal map-making ability and adeptness with complex trigger systems.
i meant what i said
if this ain't complex, i dunno what is
i just really wanna make this game stand out. not necessarily to be popular and fun, but stand out as something thats never been done before. basically, i'm treating this as a huge experimental map and therefore putting all my trigger theories into practice.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Pyro_Maniak14 on 2006-08-24 at 20:38:29
Whats the trigger count (estimated) so far? And is this going to include the last boss on Doom 3: Resurrection? Because thats like a sequel to the first Doom 3 for the Xbox...
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Zeratul_101 on 2006-08-25 at 10:43:43
well, the trig count for the FR is about 350. although, this is 'supersized' - as in it handles values it won't ingame and is therefore larger. so the ingame version should be only about 230.
thats just a support sub system(albeit a VERY large one). so i think a safe estimate for final release would be between 2500 - 3500 trigs per map.
ADDITION:
pyro, no, this isn't gonna contain anything from ROE - mainly becasue i haven;t played it before and the fact that it'd be alot more work.
thats just a support sub system(albeit a VERY large one). so i think a safe estimate for final release would be between 2500 - 3500 trigs per map.
ADDITION:
pyro, no, this isn't gonna contain anything from ROE - mainly becasue i haven;t played it before and the fact that it'd be alot more work.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by JaFF on 2006-08-25 at 10:56:44
I wouldn't need to know how high are objects according to the ground, and I wouldn't need any calculations of missile movement.
Very good. The FR is ready. Did you take the speed of calculation into concideration ?
Very good. The FR is ready. Did you take the speed of calculation into concideration ?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Zeratul_101 on 2006-08-25 at 11:31:30
into consideration? like trying to increase it? i've increased the speed quite a bit actually. it should be going about twice as fast as it used to. also, i've included the ability to test new values without exiting the map.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by JaFF on 2006-08-25 at 12:12:13
The scenario is unreadable because it is corrupt or invaild.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Pyro_Maniak14 on 2006-08-25 at 16:46:44
QUOTE(Zeratul_101 @ Aug 25 2006, 09:43 AM)
the public will receive an uncommented version while testers will get special treatment with a fully commented version.
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Hearing that makes me all bubbly inside and glad that I'm a tester.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Xx.Doom.xX on 2006-08-26 at 09:44:14
QUOTE(Zeratul_101 @ Aug 23 2006, 08:54 PM)
well, at the moment, theres no point in being a tester, i'm working on the public release version of the FR. so theres no new triggers systems to test.
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Ok, then just so when you think you have enough for a Test BETA
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Zeratul_101 on 2006-08-26 at 13:46:16
QUOTE(DoomStrike @ Aug 26 2006, 07:43 AM)
Ok, then just so when you think you have enough for a Test BETA
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thats not gonna be for a LONG time. alpha testing has just started, so i suspect about a year from now
ADDITION:
the public release of the FR is temporarily suspended. i really don't feel like spending time to convert my personal version into a public format, so unless someone uncorrupts the existing version for me, people won't be seeing it for awhile. testers may request a personal version.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Urmom(U) on 2006-08-26 at 13:49:39
QUOTE(Pyro_Maniak14 @ Aug 25 2006, 04:46 PM)
Hearing that makes me all bubbly inside and glad that I'm a tester.
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lol same here
I think Legacy knows how to uncorrupt it, I forgot what he did though.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Xx.Doom.xX on 2006-08-26 at 13:52:00
QUOTE(Zeratul_101)
thats not gonna be for a LONG time. alpha testing has just started, so i suspect about a year from now
Holy Jesus! Next year!
