Report, edit, etc...Posted by Kame on 2005-02-13 at 16:13:46
It matters what you describe blind faith as.
I put faith in the fact that Jesus died for my sins.
I put faith in the fact that Jesus saved me.
I put faith in the fact that Jesus is my messiah.
I put faith in the Bible and what it teaches is correct.
There aren't a whole lot more bases to cover concerning christianity...
I put faith in the fact that Jesus died for my sins.
I put faith in the fact that Jesus saved me.
I put faith in the fact that Jesus is my messiah.
I put faith in the Bible and what it teaches is correct.
There aren't a whole lot more bases to cover concerning christianity...
Report, edit, etc...Posted by LB_Leader on 2005-02-13 at 17:26:34
Logic brings more real evidences of things that are to be found out forth logic is needed to be more common.
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Report, edit, etc...Posted by Basan on 2005-02-14 at 13:33:33
QUOTE(Mr.Kirby)
And drunken, you are using a false analogy of your own; you have a false assumption that "faith" (as in belief in things such as the supernatural) MUST mean w/o logic. Who's trying to make the foot fit the shoe now? Let's take the classic example of the remote and the TV. From what you are saying, because it has happened in the past, when you press the power button on the remote, the TV will turn on. Also, if there were a power outage, you would logically conclude that if you were to try to press the power button on the remote, the TV would not turn on. Simple logic, yes? There is no "faith" involved in button pressing, right? Sadly, it is a false assumption, for batteries in the controller do run out, and TV's do wear out over time (entropy at work).
So lets say, drunken, that the batteries went dead (or they started leaking but you were unaware) and you on instinct pick up the controller and press the power button. The TV does not turn on. What is your next instinct? You do not logically conclude "oh, since the power did not go on on the TV, there must be something wrong with the TV or controller". The human would press the button again, and again, and again, and again until you get sick of the controller and finally conclude that the batteries are dead or the TV is busted.
"But wait" you say. "What does that have to do with faith? I logically concluded that the batteries are dead after trial and error by experimenting and observation." True, BUT it took faith. You see, from the past post, I stated that its not the evidence that talks, but the scientists are the ones that do. Evidence is a guideline; it is the scientists who make the assumptions to what it means. Since valid assumptions usually match with the facts, people claim that the assumptions (that take faith) are ONLY fact. From your repeated observerations of the power button, you make an ASSUMPTION that (after verifying with your surroundings that there is no power outage) when you push that power button, it WILL turn on. Then the batteries go dead upon you. You repeatedly push the button again because you are still closed-minded upon your past assumption that you made from your repeated observations. After pressing the button for so long, you will finally consider other alternatives and come to your conclusion (which is another assumption/hypothesis, I might add)
So lets say, drunken, that the batteries went dead (or they started leaking but you were unaware) and you on instinct pick up the controller and press the power button. The TV does not turn on. What is your next instinct? You do not logically conclude "oh, since the power did not go on on the TV, there must be something wrong with the TV or controller". The human would press the button again, and again, and again, and again until you get sick of the controller and finally conclude that the batteries are dead or the TV is busted.
"But wait" you say. "What does that have to do with faith? I logically concluded that the batteries are dead after trial and error by experimenting and observation." True, BUT it took faith. You see, from the past post, I stated that its not the evidence that talks, but the scientists are the ones that do. Evidence is a guideline; it is the scientists who make the assumptions to what it means. Since valid assumptions usually match with the facts, people claim that the assumptions (that take faith) are ONLY fact. From your repeated observerations of the power button, you make an ASSUMPTION that (after verifying with your surroundings that there is no power outage) when you push that power button, it WILL turn on. Then the batteries go dead upon you. You repeatedly push the button again because you are still closed-minded upon your past assumption that you made from your repeated observations. After pressing the button for so long, you will finally consider other alternatives and come to your conclusion (which is another assumption/hypothesis, I might add)
All this and to forgot the relevant... to say that since it wasn't a closed system, the energy had to go eleswhere's. Hence the basic assumption of yours lacks the durability of the batteries in the 1st place. If it doesn't work past a period of time, let's check the power source 1st.
All you can hope is that it still has enough energy to work.
Same as for your keyboard. The springs and sensors below the keys get worn out and the material in'em (metal n' related circuitry, most likely) will lose it's force due to friction and reliableness to work properly. A nice overall (opening, dusting, cleaning,checking contacts, etc.) at it will prob'ly fix it. Or you could simply buy a new one.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by MillenniumArmy on 2005-02-14 at 17:46:46
QUOTE(FireKame @ Feb 13 2005, 03:13 PM)
It matters what you describe blind faith as.
I put faith in the fact that Jesus died for my sins.
I put faith in the fact that Jesus saved me.
I put faith in the fact that Jesus is my messiah.
I put faith in the Bible and what it teaches is correct.
There aren't a whole lot more bases to cover concerning christianity...
[right][snapback]144390[/snapback][/right]
I put faith in the fact that Jesus died for my sins.
I put faith in the fact that Jesus saved me.
I put faith in the fact that Jesus is my messiah.
I put faith in the Bible and what it teaches is correct.
There aren't a whole lot more bases to cover concerning christianity...
[right][snapback]144390[/snapback][/right]
Yes, i put faith in God and prayed to him alot. And what do you know, soon some of my answers were answered.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by CheeZe on 2005-02-14 at 18:08:46
Alright, let me run an experiment. I will pray to god for the answers to all of the following:
-the end behavior of sin(x) or cos(x)
-the last digit of pi and e
-why we use english
-why do we speak
-why do I get junkmail
-why are we alive
If I get any of these answers by the end of this year, I'll accept god and jesus and whatever.
-the end behavior of sin(x) or cos(x)
-the last digit of pi and e
-why we use english
-why do we speak
-why do I get junkmail
-why are we alive
If I get any of these answers by the end of this year, I'll accept god and jesus and whatever.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by MillenniumArmy on 2005-02-14 at 18:23:35
Ok, so you're testing God...
I highly doubt that'll work since those "prayers" are just useless and dumb ones and more importantly, testing whether he will answer u or not. He doesn't want you to test him.
Those "prayers" are just.... well, no comment...
Cuz we live in an English Speaking Country. But if u're really asking "why is there even an english?"
It's cuz back in the old days, the humans got Cocky and therefore tried to build a tower in Babylon so it could reach the heavens. God got mad, destroyed the tower, and punished the ppl by making several different languages so people would get confused by each other's communications
We speak because it's a way of communication. Without a form of communication, we'd be walking around like dummies and have no idea what each other is doing. What a chaotic world it would be...
Because you either applied to some spam sites on accident, have one of those e-mail addresses where they automatically give you junk, or you're seeing things. I use Yahoo because they dont automatically give u those junk mail things like G-mail or Hotmail does i think...
We're alive so we could therefore have the choice to follow God or not.
But if you want to look at it literally... then it's up to you to find out. Every human has a purpose to life. You gotta find it
I highly doubt that'll work since those "prayers" are just useless and dumb ones and more importantly, testing whether he will answer u or not. He doesn't want you to test him.
QUOTE
-the end behavior of sin(x) or cos(x)
-the last digit of pi and e
-the last digit of pi and e
Those "prayers" are just.... well, no comment...
QUOTE
-why we use english
Cuz we live in an English Speaking Country. But if u're really asking "why is there even an english?"
It's cuz back in the old days, the humans got Cocky and therefore tried to build a tower in Babylon so it could reach the heavens. God got mad, destroyed the tower, and punished the ppl by making several different languages so people would get confused by each other's communications
QUOTE
-why do we speak
We speak because it's a way of communication. Without a form of communication, we'd be walking around like dummies and have no idea what each other is doing. What a chaotic world it would be...
QUOTE
-why do I get junkmail
Because you either applied to some spam sites on accident, have one of those e-mail addresses where they automatically give you junk, or you're seeing things. I use Yahoo because they dont automatically give u those junk mail things like G-mail or Hotmail does i think...
QUOTE
-why are we alive
We're alive so we could therefore have the choice to follow God or not.
But if you want to look at it literally... then it's up to you to find out. Every human has a purpose to life. You gotta find it
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Drj12 on 2005-02-14 at 18:33:19
QUOTE
Ok, so you're testing God...
First, dont test God. Jesus survived in the desert for 40 days and nights with satan tempting him.
QUOTE
-the last digit of pi and e-why do I get junkmail
The humans invented pi and e and God wants us to make decisions for ourselves, not have him tell us everything.
QUOTE
-why are we alive
The scriptures say to us that God made humans because he wanted life to flurish and he wanted something that was intellegent to make its own choices, and advance in civilization.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Nozomu on 2005-02-14 at 18:38:21
If he wants us to solve our own problems, why does he supposedly answer prayers? Those are contradicting statements.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Drj12 on 2005-02-14 at 19:02:45
God answers spritial questions and questions that are very serious. Give up on, last diget of pi.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by MillenniumArmy on 2005-02-14 at 19:04:58
Yea, he answers prayers that aren't selfish and ones that benefit people.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Nozomu on 2005-02-15 at 02:42:41
That still doesn't answer my question. He can't answer prayers and expect us to solve our own problems.
Also, how can you pray for something unselfishly? If you want something to happen, chances are that it will benefit you in some way, or it will benefit somebody else and you'll feel responsible and important. Have you ever prayed for something that wasn't in your best interest?
Also, how can you pray for something unselfishly? If you want something to happen, chances are that it will benefit you in some way, or it will benefit somebody else and you'll feel responsible and important. Have you ever prayed for something that wasn't in your best interest?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Mr.Kirbycode774 on 2005-02-18 at 03:30:53
Ok this is just getting sad somewhat.. I seriously need to create my own topic where I just copy parts of my very LOGICAL book (uses natural revelation instead of divine revelation(bible)) "I Don't have enough faith to be an Athiest".
You see, Nozomu just got you guys in a trap. A couple things you have to realize about the Athiest mind:
1) No matter how reliable the Christian source may be (i doubt any athiest in here would admit that ANY religious source has any credibility.) they will constantly poke at every tiny little corner.
2) You cannot do any "assumptions" because most athiests here are unwilling to believe that any type of faith is associated with logic.
3) Don't try to step ahead of things. For example, it would be quite useless to prove Jesus is the son of God if you can't prove that God exists in the first place.
4) Athiests have "biased" presuppositions just like we do, based upon what we believe in (or logically conclude for unwilling athiests).
With prayer, you mainly messed up on the 4th statement. Athiests are huge fans of chance; they have to believe in chance for Evolution (something with very little chance) to happen in an extremely long period of time. So stating that God "sometimes" answers these prayers can instantly be refuted with the "chance" argument in the athiest viewpoint. One way to beat an argument is to use the exact same argument against it and negates it, which is what just happened. But, instead of showing the problem with the "chance" argument, Nozomu uses another approach which results in disastorous consequences. Instead of realizing the Athiest psyche, you were showing why the prayers were useless. Then, Nozomu whacked you upside the head with the Law of Noncontridiction, where two contridictory things cannot be true at the same time. In other words, for the equation 1+1=x, 2 is true, and every other number is false.
Ironically, even though the "prayer" argument is faulty, Nozomu still messed up
These are the reasons:
1) The Law of Noncontridiction actually doesn't apply to "solve your own problems, then why does he answer prayer?" In that form, it does sound contridictory. But the problem is that he shouldn't have to solve ALL our problems. God may have infinite patience, but he certaintly intends to show that he's not some floor mat you can walk all over. Pretend to be a Christian for a second Nozomu (yes you can go "duy... I'm a stupid Christian..." God gave you free will did he not?) If God answered all your prayers and made your life comfortable, who would you be loving, Him or his stuff he gives you? So solving all our problems is out of the question for God.
2)You CAN have unselfish prayers. From what I see Nozomu, you're having selfishness spread too vague. From your speech, you're saying that you're being selfish in typing a "logical" argument to refute the Christians, and that I am selfish for showing your errror! From what you're saying, UNSELFISHNESS DOES NOT EXIST!!! But because we do use this word to describe people who "give of themselves", your interpretation of unselfishness is different than the world's interpretation of unselfishness.
3) Yes, I did cut #2 short, but because this ties into it. Your big question you taunt the Christians with is: Have you ever prayed for something that wasn't in your best interest? My gosh, that's even more vague than the prophesies shown in Prophesies for Dummies that Drunken handed out. Define "best interest". It could mean the "overall best (in long run)", "your thoughts on what the best is", "the most profitable outcome". When someone prays 'God, let your will for my life be done' they are letting their lives being overseen by Him(if he exists of course). It may not be their "best interest" currently in their own minds (party hardy, get laid), but they want God to help them with the "overall best".
"But wait" Nozomu rebuttles, "You just said that 'solving ALL our problems is out of the question for God.' Yet, now you say they're letting their lives being overseen by Him. Those are contridictory statements! You're just as horrible at logic as all the other Christians!!!"
Not necessarily. Who ever said Christians have all their problems solved? They may be overseen by God, but this is the world. Events happen, natural disasters occur, people choose to use their free will for evil. Life is tainted, therefore imperfection will exist. That's why in the Christian mind Jesus is a miracle. He was perfection(sinless). (And yes, Jesus does exist. In non-Christian writings(within 150 years of Jesus's life) Jesus is mentioned 11 times, while the prominant and famous Roman EMPEROR Tiberius Caesar who ruled at the time is only mentioned 10 times. Why would such a prominant figure be slightly overshadowed by some non-existant person?)
Well, that's all I need to say. It's late; I need to go to bed. Good night.
You see, Nozomu just got you guys in a trap. A couple things you have to realize about the Athiest mind:
1) No matter how reliable the Christian source may be (i doubt any athiest in here would admit that ANY religious source has any credibility.) they will constantly poke at every tiny little corner.
2) You cannot do any "assumptions" because most athiests here are unwilling to believe that any type of faith is associated with logic.
3) Don't try to step ahead of things. For example, it would be quite useless to prove Jesus is the son of God if you can't prove that God exists in the first place.
4) Athiests have "biased" presuppositions just like we do, based upon what we believe in (or logically conclude for unwilling athiests).
With prayer, you mainly messed up on the 4th statement. Athiests are huge fans of chance; they have to believe in chance for Evolution (something with very little chance) to happen in an extremely long period of time. So stating that God "sometimes" answers these prayers can instantly be refuted with the "chance" argument in the athiest viewpoint. One way to beat an argument is to use the exact same argument against it and negates it, which is what just happened. But, instead of showing the problem with the "chance" argument, Nozomu uses another approach which results in disastorous consequences. Instead of realizing the Athiest psyche, you were showing why the prayers were useless. Then, Nozomu whacked you upside the head with the Law of Noncontridiction, where two contridictory things cannot be true at the same time. In other words, for the equation 1+1=x, 2 is true, and every other number is false.
Ironically, even though the "prayer" argument is faulty, Nozomu still messed up
These are the reasons:
1) The Law of Noncontridiction actually doesn't apply to "solve your own problems, then why does he answer prayer?" In that form, it does sound contridictory. But the problem is that he shouldn't have to solve ALL our problems. God may have infinite patience, but he certaintly intends to show that he's not some floor mat you can walk all over. Pretend to be a Christian for a second Nozomu (yes you can go "duy... I'm a stupid Christian..." God gave you free will did he not?) If God answered all your prayers and made your life comfortable, who would you be loving, Him or his stuff he gives you? So solving all our problems is out of the question for God.
2)You CAN have unselfish prayers. From what I see Nozomu, you're having selfishness spread too vague. From your speech, you're saying that you're being selfish in typing a "logical" argument to refute the Christians, and that I am selfish for showing your errror! From what you're saying, UNSELFISHNESS DOES NOT EXIST!!! But because we do use this word to describe people who "give of themselves", your interpretation of unselfishness is different than the world's interpretation of unselfishness.
3) Yes, I did cut #2 short, but because this ties into it. Your big question you taunt the Christians with is: Have you ever prayed for something that wasn't in your best interest? My gosh, that's even more vague than the prophesies shown in Prophesies for Dummies that Drunken handed out. Define "best interest". It could mean the "overall best (in long run)", "your thoughts on what the best is", "the most profitable outcome". When someone prays 'God, let your will for my life be done' they are letting their lives being overseen by Him(if he exists of course). It may not be their "best interest" currently in their own minds (party hardy, get laid), but they want God to help them with the "overall best".
"But wait" Nozomu rebuttles, "You just said that 'solving ALL our problems is out of the question for God.' Yet, now you say they're letting their lives being overseen by Him. Those are contridictory statements! You're just as horrible at logic as all the other Christians!!!"
Not necessarily. Who ever said Christians have all their problems solved? They may be overseen by God, but this is the world. Events happen, natural disasters occur, people choose to use their free will for evil. Life is tainted, therefore imperfection will exist. That's why in the Christian mind Jesus is a miracle. He was perfection(sinless). (And yes, Jesus does exist. In non-Christian writings(within 150 years of Jesus's life) Jesus is mentioned 11 times, while the prominant and famous Roman EMPEROR Tiberius Caesar who ruled at the time is only mentioned 10 times. Why would such a prominant figure be slightly overshadowed by some non-existant person?)
Well, that's all I need to say. It's late; I need to go to bed. Good night.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Nozomu on 2005-02-18 at 09:34:06
No one is refuting the existence of Jesus the human. But I see no evidence that he should be considered to be divine.
Thanks for that nice dose of strawman you just gave us. I love it when people misrepresent my ideas.
Don't put words in my mouth, and act like I said them. Not cool. A strawman argument is fallacious.
Thanks for that nice dose of strawman you just gave us. I love it when people misrepresent my ideas.
Don't put words in my mouth, and act like I said them. Not cool. A strawman argument is fallacious.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Mr.Kirbycode774 on 2005-02-18 at 21:03:47
Wow, you're farther along than I thought Nozomu. Some people don't even believe that Jesus exists!
My "strawman" as you call it, is that from what i've seen, atheists usually pick at every corner of an argument. So, I made this "strawman" you call it just to save us both time and to show some arguments against my point. I just thought (yes that is an "assumption") that YOU or some other person would point that out. Therefore, I wanted to solve that problem. I was not implying that you would point it out, but it was a something that might have sounded contridictory. In later posts when I use this "strawman" as you call it, I'll point out that this is a hypothetical argument that might be used against it. You could say I was playing the "skeptic's advocate" role, or what ever role you might be. It's always good when making statements to double-check on what the opponent might respond.
Sorry if I offended you
. You're name is just so nice, and japanese pronounciated; I can't resist 
My "strawman" as you call it, is that from what i've seen, atheists usually pick at every corner of an argument. So, I made this "strawman" you call it just to save us both time and to show some arguments against my point. I just thought (yes that is an "assumption") that YOU or some other person would point that out. Therefore, I wanted to solve that problem. I was not implying that you would point it out, but it was a something that might have sounded contridictory. In later posts when I use this "strawman" as you call it, I'll point out that this is a hypothetical argument that might be used against it. You could say I was playing the "skeptic's advocate" role, or what ever role you might be. It's always good when making statements to double-check on what the opponent might respond.
Sorry if I offended you
. You're name is just so nice, and japanese pronounciated; I can't resist Report, edit, etc...Posted by Nozomu on 2005-02-19 at 03:08:40
It's cool, just in the future don't put words in my mouth. Let me make any new arguments myself.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Basan on 2005-02-21 at 09:52:54
I sure can't wait to see the answers of Drj12 n' M.Army to these questions...
Especially, since the other thread was closed before I could had a chance of commenting on it's latest posts after mine. (It was getting back to circle logic. What a shame...)
Edit reason: linkage fixin'. *Sigh*
Especially, since the other thread was closed before I could had a chance of commenting on it's latest posts after mine. (It was getting back to circle logic. What a shame...)
Edit reason: linkage fixin'. *Sigh*