Staredit Network

Uhm, not quite.
You are going too far.
I warned you very often to chill out a little.
I was hoping we could keep this quiet, and that you would play nice with the other boys, but thus far you seem to have not.
Impressing your beliefs on other people are not right. I don't have much power, but I can delegate to higher authorities if you keep this up.
oh yea and...
*FireKame enters some humorous and witty statement already done by some other witty or humorous moderator.

viola.

To indecisiveman

You know what? I am glad you reported me becuase thats exactly what God would have wanted you to do . You still don't know what Praise means do you? I am not putting them higher then me, I am acknowledging them for good deeds and having a good life. If you had a younger brother (infant or small child) who you were teaching him how to walk and he walked 10 feet with out your help, you would praise him for his good job, thats not putting him above you! Thats saying, "Hey good job!" and if I was talking to a Saint "Hey, good Job for living a great life with Jesus and such!". I am finding it hard to find examples that would make you understand! At the church I go to we focus on the bible and singing and such, we focus our attention on God/Jesus, very little on the Saints and Mary. But we do acknowledge them during Mass. And I don't think its good that you don't practice lent, I do. Every holiday/important event you should take seriously and be apart of.

Many people have done good deeds for the Lord. I don't see you praising them. That is my point. Not what the defintion of praise is. Just that you are in fact acknowledging CERTAIN people instead of everyone.

Mass murder in the form of a flood. Mass murder in His name during the Crusades and Inquisition. Eternal torment. Yeah, God's a great guy, if you overlook the fact that he's the biggest psychopath in history.

Every genocide in history has had religious significance. Look at the Crusades, Rwanda, and the Holocaust. If there's one thing in the entire world that scares me, it's the idea of letting religious extremists gain political control of any country, including America. And yes, forcing your religious views on other people in a secular system like ours is extremism, it's just not violent extremism.

Flood was deserved
Inquisition was man made -- and could easily be blamed on the devil.
Eternal torment is deserved.
God is a great guy.

genocide is man made -- and could easily be blamed on the devil.

Most of the massive blood baths you are talking about weren't God's intent/order. It was the head of the Church/Leaders at the time. It's their fault for being Crazy, God knew all these things were going to happen but didn't stop them beucase he knew what was going to happen in the future like how America is so Advanced and western civilization and such. The Massive flood was God's fault and I think he was just pissed at all of human kind and wanted to start over fresh and new. The Crusades were helpful to western civilization becuase soldeirs returning to Europe from the holy land brought back pillage which helped the European culture expand and such stuff like that.

Oh, so you claim to know God's intent? How do you know what his intent is?

If everything that happens is in His plan, then those horrific tragedies were His intent. He made Lucifer to tempt people, right? According to the logic assumption that everything that happens is part of God's plan, then we can trace every genocide straight back to God.

I disagree with you that the flood was deserved, FK. He called it off for the same reason he started it, because man's imagination is evil.

I've got a real problem with that statement, FireKame. "And could easily be blamed on the devil". Yeah. Sure is easy, sure isn't true. Do you know how a human brain works? Do you realize what a waste of time it would've been for any God-whatever to make such a complex and versatile thing if it's just going to be controlled by something else? It's easy to blame the devil, blame the great evil for the shortcomings of man. I don't believe it's ever been a battle between good and evil. I believe it's been a battle between what man really is and what man wants to be. "America looks at Kennedy, they see what they want to be. They look at me, and they see what they really are."- Richard Nixon? (Probably not, just a quote from a movie, someone else probably said it).

in the end...the short comings of man are because of the devil
*points to the apple and the serpent in the garden of eden*

Yeah, throw blame around. I think humans came up with the concept of the devil because they couldn't bear to live with the fact that they are naturally selfish. It's always easier to live with what you have done and what others have done to you if you shift the blame.

Again, you point at someone else. You push the blame off us. It's not true. The Serpent gave us something better. Constant happiness becomes normality. If you don't have the downs or the inbetweens, how do you know you're up? If you've always been in paradise, it's not that good. Maybe the Serpent is the good guy, and the one you worship is actually the evil. Maybe? Ever seen Pleasantville? About the devil: With all we know about human nature, it's surprising it took us this long to make something to blame all of the bad in the world for. Satan, Lucifer, the Beast, the Devil. If you've ever read the Sandman, two important points are made in one of the books. One being that Satan never makes you do anything. Two being that you put yourself in Hell, that you're not forced to go there. But, of course, the Holy Bible doesn't say that, Jesus didn't say that, it must be wrong! Ah, such innovative, imaginative people in the world today! I've lost my faith in humanity.

Isn't that a little hypocritical, Nozomu? Weren't you blaming all those horrible things on God just moments ago?

Technically, I'd say that the shortcomings of man are innate. If we didn't have an inbuilt weakness then Eve would never had taken the apple. The task of the angelic office of 'Satan' is to test the strength of faith and such. Looks like we failed.

I reckon it's best to have knowledge though. Good for her that she took that apple.

[quote=CheeZe,Mar 15 2005, 07:57 PM]
Explain this paradise. While you're at it, explain hell, because I don't know if it's...[/quote]
You know CheeZe, this whole time i've seen atheists pick at Christian beliefs, yet they never back up their own claims of evolution. Indecisiveman challenged you to state your claims, but you just dusted it off as if it wasn't important. Proving Christianity false doesn't prove Evolution true; likewise, me proving Evolution false doesn't necessarily prove Christianity true.

Knowing this, please tell me CheeZe, explain macroevolution. While you're at it, explain why Evolutionists believe in a theory that doesn't have evidence from our universe (only inference), ability to recreate the experiment (only theorize), and have no observation of changing of animals between species. Also, explain where the universe came from; ignoring gaps in logic doesn't mean the gaps will just disappear. If the universe is static, then point out the error of General Relativity, the radiation waves from the "big bang", and the observable red shift of the expanding universe. If you believe that the universe (any particles) isn't static, then show me evidence that something other than a Creator made it. If you believe in spontaneous generation, then give me evidence of such nonsense and tell me the errors of Francesco Redi and Louis Pasteur in their experiments of disproving spontaneous generation. I think it is quite ironic that in this book that is from an evolutionistic point of view states this: [quote]His work convinced other scientists that the hypothesis of spontaneous generation was not correct. In other words, Pasteur showed that all living things come from other living things

Also, please explain how fossils prove evolution linkage when 99% of the biology of any organism resides in the soft tissue? In addition, why cannot similiarity in animals be also proof for a common creator instead of a common ancestry?

Come now CheeZe, we're waiting.
[quote]Take note, real occurrences. This means observation, ability to recreate the experiment or evidence from our universe. Almost every single scientific theory is backed by at least one of these, if not all three.[/quote] Very true, but there are some things that cannot use all three rules. For example, if a miracle ACTUALLY occurred and you saw it, but had no time to take photos or document it while it was happening or what not, you are only able to use the first part of this, observation (since you can't "recreate" a miracle or explain it with evidence from the universe because it wasn't from natural laws). But of course, since "observation" is not reliable in accordance to others, you must be a total lunatic. Now before you start picking away at the worthless passage above, the main point I wish to bring out is this: Forsenic evidence.

Forsenic evidence, as any good scientist knows, is evidence from the past. Since we could not have observed it (considering it happened before us), we are now down to only to "recreate it" and evidence from our universe.

From the reliable non-Christian sources, Jesus is mentioned more times than the current Roman Emperor Tiberius Caesar! From the non-Christian references, we see that:
1. Jesus lived during the time of Tiberius Caesar.
2. He lived a virtuous life.
3. He was a wonder-worker.
4. He had a brother named James.
5. He was acclaimed to be the Messiah.
6. He was crucified under Pontius Pilate.
7. He was crucified on the eve of the Jewish Passover.
8. Darkness and an earthquake occurred when he died.
9. His disciples believed he rose from the dead.
10. His disciples were willing to die for their belief.
11. Christianity spread rapidly as far as Rome.
12. His disciples denied the Roman gods and worshiped Jesus as God.

From so-called "non-biased" evidence, we can piece together that Jesus was not some myth, but that he actually existed. Oh gosh, they affirm the New Testament!!! That must mean that they're wrong!!! Of course, sadly, that's probably what most stubborn atheists would say . In any case, forsenic evidence, since you cannot prove it with all three "real occurence definitions", needs more evidence in these two areas than whereas ones where you can observe it.

So tell me, my dear produce made from layering the milk, what "evidence" do you have for evolution?
[quote]
I don't even know why I'm explaining to you why we should listen to scientists. You can deny their ideas all you want, but you know the evidence is there.
[/quote] Back at you CheeZe.
[quote]Dude, sarcasm rocks!

It actually sort of brings the voice out instead of just reading boring text.
[right][snapback]165881[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
Not really; it's more like a variation of CaptainWill's allcaps when used improperly.

This topic has really gone on too long and ultimately just became another "YOU'RE WRONG, THERE IS NO GOD!" "THERE IS A GOD, YOU'RE GOING TO HELL!" skermish. Although it had it's important bits, it ultimately ended with the same conclusion: No matter what your beliefs are, you're entitled to them, as long as you don't break any laws. If a mod reads this, please close this discussion, I consider it done.

It's not hypocritical at all since God created the devil. It's illogical to blame something on the devil without blaming it on God. As far as I'm concerned, they're both pretty bad customers to mess with. If they exist, that is.

It sounds hypocritical because in some of my posts I take your assumptions (that God exists, etc.) and form logical conclusions from them, like the one where I talk about the Crusades. Then there're my posts where I speak from my own assumtpions, like the humanist one above.

you blame God for creating the devil. True it is, but it is blame.

Well, personally, I don't blame anybody but myself for my own faults. But if I did believe in God, then yes, I would blame him for making the devil and causing all of this suffering.

How do we know? Cuz he told us in the Bible. Simple


If you dont know what paradise means:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=paradise

But if you want me to further explain what this paradise is like which i assume is what you wanted:
It's a happy place where there's no bad things such as violence and hurt feelings and all that. You feel great and nothing bad would happen.

Whereas Hell, it's like a pit of fire you're thrown into. You'll be tormented by it's flames and you'll suffer for eternity.


God's not coercing or threatening anyone. Offering people the chance to believing in him is not a threat. If God literally says "YOU MUST BELIEVE IN ME OR YOU SHALL BE ETERNALLY DAMNED," then we must be worried. He's not really sending us to hell, but really it's ourselves that are banishing ourselves to hell. He just simply feels sad for those doomed ones since he knows there's nothing he can do about it. Yes all religions have their little "downsides" or things that just dont seem to suit everyone perfectly but the christian one to me seems much better than buddhism.


Well they shouldn't literally be threatening you. That's another example of how some people's idea's or views about christianity have sort of demented. That's not the way people should be trying to convert others if they have a gun pointed at your heading coercing you to believe in God or else.

And im talking about the christian environment today, not the past. Yes right now there's some violences here and there in the world, but im really talking about when you walk into a christian library or building. The environment there feels much better than when you walk into a buddhist place.


I didnt misinterprete ur ideas. I was just commenting


Ok, well in that case...

It's not about how old or ancient a religion is; it's about whether it's valid or works. If we tried praying to this "God" in that religion and our prayers were answered, then we'd follow that religion. See, the reason why christianity had been lasting this many years is because so many people's prayers have been answered throughout the ages.


I'm asking why are they considered "facts" when there's other so-called "facts" that disprove them?

Ok, first you were saying your arguments are valid because they're backed up with facts that are approved by scientists. Now you're saying we shouldn't listen to what scientists say??


Yes, generally we can, but in this particular case i dont see any evidence.


To a certain extent. Not to yours though


Damn, couldn't say it any better than firekame.


God said it's the devil that's causing this, not us humans coming up with this hypothetical assumption.


No, this topic hasn't. We haven't jumped into those conclusions yet. Right now we're still picking at each other's specific things, not the whole argument itself. Yes we're all entitled to our own beliefs but these debates are excellent opportunities for both sides to see what the other side is like and compare ideas.

There is absolutely NO reason to close this topic. Unless we've jumped into flaming each other and going off topic or w/e, then there's a reason to close.

Yes god did create an angel that truned renegade on him and now thats what we see as the devil/satan. How can any one explain the random acts of violence and being possesed. There have been many stories of good people that one day go crazy and insane for no reason but after a Priest conducted an Exercist (I think thats how you spell it, I such at spelling) They went back to normal. BUt not always, but most of the time they are cured (as to do with the devil). And yes a person is a smart and intelligent person but humans are jealous, crazy, panicky and selfish. Get the difference?

I'm a bit mixed up, having made another topic similiar to this. I really feel this has gone on long enough, it's gone really far from the original concept. But, I guess I'm not really in control here. That was a tad selfish, I apologize, but I don't feel like reading too much more of this. So, once again, a nice point is put in about how humans really are, then IT'S THE BIG BAD DEVIL MAN HE DID IT GOD DOESN'T LIKE HIM HE'S BAD HE'S IN YOU, YOU GO TO HELL. This fairytale crap needs to end. Humans have a definate nature, which is not a pleasant one. It's not something added in, it's not some big baddies fault, YOU NEED TO ADMIT THAT WE ARE NOT THE PUPPETS OF THE WHIMS OF THESE GREAT FIGURES YOUR BOOK SPEAKS OF, WE ARE SENTIENT BEINGS WITH THOUGHT PROCESSES, AND AS OF SUCH ARE ENTIRELY SELF-SUPPORTING. Well, there, I got that bit of anger off my chest. I'd like to stop seeing "The devil is the baddy." "No god is, he made the baddy", it's not revolutionary swapping the places of the white king and the black, it's changing a tiny detail to do essentially the exact same task: make humans truely perfect pure beings at the center of existence, the smartest, most beautiful perfect ones who were just made evil by the big baddy, and he's responsible for all the bad we do! We're all good and nice, really! WE'RE NOT!

I BELIEVE IN GOD WITH ALL MY HEART AND YOU CAN'T CHANGE THAT! I AM NOT A MINDLESS PUPPET LIKE YOU MAKE ME TO BE

*topic closed via several requests