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Since you know you are wrong and are trying to avoid my points, I'll post them again and ask you to really tell me what'swrong with them. To anyone reading this topic it is painfully clear who is winning this arguement.

I'll just post the most recent ones


Wrong? How.

Wrong? How.



Wrong? How.



The point being in a discussion is to actually discuss each others points, and defend your position. And you have an obsession with saying stuff like this :



You finally explained yourself here:



But you don't sem to understand that I have done something requiring more intelligence than what you do, yet is still extremely similar (triggers are just simplified baby-progamming, and everything else you do in making a UMS map is also done when making a game, but you have to make it all from scratch). In other words, I not only understand what you do, but much more than it as well. And if you continue to ignore all of my points, then why are you in this discussion?

The fact that you keep saying this:


Shows you have no idea what the hell you are talking about

Now since you are an idiot and need me to explain everything I'll reply to your points even though I have done so already.



Even if that were true about having to please noobs, that doesn't make a UMS map harder to make, my god you can say the same thing about melee. You can please any noob, take fastest possible map ever for example. That IS melee. Rofl and you prove my point with saying it wont get anywhere unless it's EXCELLENT, THATS THE POINT ITS HARD TO MAKE AN EXCELLENT MELEE MAP.

Most melee maps when proffesionally released show credits or something along those lines else when used in UMS. That isn't what we are talking about here.Ee were not talking about balanced melee maps with a few triggers thrown in vs balanced melee maps without triggers. We were talking about balanced melee maps vs. what is meant by "UMS maps" 100% of the time. The arguement isn't about whether it's harder to making a balanced melee map or making that same map with triggers showing credits. You, I, and everyone who has been reading knows that.



Ok, lets rephrase my comment a bit. Someone COULD make a "melee" like map but change everything around, and still have to make it balanced and have incredible terrain, to have it fit his new version of UMS map. And saying literally 100% of the time there are minigames, RPGs, bounds etc proves nothing. So what if UMS is full of mapmaking noobs? That doesn't show that it's easier to make than Melee. In fact, it makes it harder to make because you have to prove yourself over so many other people. My example before wasn't really an exact copy of melee, but a UMS version of "melee" in where the creator made triggers to do many different things with the units and add new abilities and etc.

I'll also add to my example. In UMS you can virtually CREATE YOUR OWN classes of races and etc. Which you then have to BALANCE by tweaking the stats as well as tailor the terrain to make it perfectly balanced to what the UMS creator CREATED. If you disagree with this, then you probably think that creating SC and balancing those units was easier than creating a simple Melee map.

Also, what I originally meant was that Melee is a SUBSET of UMS, like it or not. Melee is terrain, minerals, start locations, and doodads when it comes to creating the map. UMS is everything that is PLUS adding units, creating triggers, and the ability to change the abilities. Saying that a subset of something else is greater than the thing it's contained in is pure crap.



That proves nothing at all, except your ignorance towards UMS maps. Any newb with a map can also make a well accepted melee map.

I also have an idea for you, instead of being an idiot and showing how little you know about UMS mapmaking, IN A UMS community, where you are trying to GAIN melee support, you should try respecting the fact that UMS takes just as much skill as Melee and maybe then people would start paying a little more attention. The more you say UMS is inferior to Melee, the more difficult you make it to actually gain support for Melee here.

No, it's right. Your hobby isn't that unique.



For actual maps: A melee map has to be very balanced and original to actually be used on battle.net, let alone wgtour/pgtour. A UMS map only has to be liked by a few people here before it starts being played. It's like online flash games: the don't have to be meticulously crafted in order to become played. Melee map players won't play it unless it's excellent and deemed excellent by excellent players.

Money maps are the one difference. The players for those have no understanding of the game. Those maps involve no balance or strategy, and should be kept seperate from meee.



Okay, so that is what you mean.

I could use two approaches respond to this, but I'll use the following: if someone could change the units around and keep it balanced, and put that on a well balanced and decorated melee map, then yes that would be harder to make than a melee map. Too bad it hasn't been done before, and quite frankly never will. Very few people have that good of an understanding of the game (let along UMS makers), and those who do realize that changes within the game will only make it worse.

Define an "actual" map in a way that isn't biased or opinionated in any way.



Hmm, yet they are part of melee? Ever think that this could be the crap of the melee, just like the UMS has crap?



Your ignorance is showing. Nice generalization of UMS mapmakers.



That should be the end of the argument.

You can't thrown in crap like this:



To cover up for the fact that it is very possible for a UMS map to be harder to make than a melee map. In fact there probably are some UMS maps either being made right now, or already have been made, that have taken much more skill to make than any melee map around.

Also reply to this


I added it a second time after, so you "might" have not seen it. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but still tell me your thoughts on this.

Actual map: There are limited resources in each main, players must expand and secure expos, balance considerations have been made, and possibly modest decoration has been added to the map.



No, because why on earth should you compare it to the rest of melee when they share nothing in common except the units? Okay, would you consider a UMS map played in melee to be part of melee? Neither would be anything like the actual game.



It's a generalization, but it's true. Could you give a counter-example?



If saying that one theoretical UMS map can be harder to make then melee maps ends the arguement, then the fact that all proffesonal melee maps are harder to make than real UMS maps should have ended the arguement a long time ago.



[Too bad my quote was edited out.]

Why can't I? It's true that no UMS map maker has enough understanding of the game to go in and switch spells around. And of the melee players that do, they wouldn't waste their time doing it when it would take another 7 years of testing before they would know whether it was really balanced.




This is too easy.

You are an idiot, UMS maps aren't MEANT to be played in melee mode. FPME were made to be played in melee mode. They don't have triggers other than the ones that give you 50 minerals and ends the game if you dont have any buildings.



How about I use you for example, but twist it around to apply for UMS mapmaking? You think you know everything about UMS mapmaking when you certainly don't. You call your generalization a truth? Ha.



No. What I said in no way means that what you said is true, besides the fact that what you just said is all about OPINION.



Yawn, another one of your lame opinions of what is true and what is not.

I guess its true that UMS mapmakers don't have enough understanding to make extra-editors and create mods. Oh wait, they DO don't they?



Yes it is too easy when you have no idea what the hell you are arguing against, and can say any random crap that doesn't make sense.

But for me I'll say it is too easy as well, because your arguments are crap.

You are not nearly qualified to make such arguments about UMS, when you have no idea what you are talking about. Your arguments have no credibility, let alone the fact that they are wrong. Maybe if you were an experienced UMS mapmaker you could get by with such fallacious arguments.

In addition, reply to this. (but I'm sure you will make a crappy response, just like you do with every other point)

Why does that matter? What use is there in lumping something as aweful as money maps in with melee? Money maps have no balance, no...... anything that the other maps have. Nothing is gained in terms of understanding when you classify them in the same category.



Ha. I never said I could make a good UMS map. I said what I said to show that there are no UMS makers with a good enough understanding of melee to acutally change it.



Are you saying you still don't thing that it was easier to create Requiem than it did your average bound? Are you that unreasonable? Are you that out of touch? If you want to prove something using one theoretical unmade/unmakable map, I can use one real life map.



Of course they can make those things! But that has nothing to do with their understanding of melee.



As I have been saying, I do something that is essentially what you do but more cimplicated and difficult. I don't see why you think UMS making is harder than programming.



Just because UMS shares the same terrain, minerals, start locations and doodads as melee doesn't mean they use them for anything close to the same purpose, or put anywhere near the amount of thought when placing them as for melee. It's like saying that writing essays is a subset of scribbling.


Stop arguing. You've been owned this whole thread. Also, I hope someone has the time to read thge whole thing to see the kind of crap you pull (you give a bad arguement, I counter it, and you quote my counter as if I was countering something completely different). Just leave the thread before you lose all reputation.

Ok, then lets not group bounds in UMS because most obviously suck



You make a bold statement saying NO UMS mapmakers can actually change melee. Rofl I never said you did say you could make a good UMS map, what I'm saying is you are ignorant because you act like you know everything about UMS mapmaking and make comments that are untrue.



Ok you compare a professional map to an "average" bound. Good Job you noob, you just showed that the only thing you know about UMS are the average bound. How bout you actually learn to play a good UMS map. Are you that unreasonable that you can't do that? I can use a real map as well too, take one of Tux's or Bolt's maps for example. Or one of those maps in production which have a few pages of replies.



No, but it has to do with the fact you are making stupid stereotypes.



Where have I said programmins is more difficult than UMS mapmaking? Are you that stupid? Ok let me take what you said and rephrase it for myself. I do something that is essentially what you do, melee mapmake, but more complicated and difficult, ums mapmaking, because I not only have to take into account balancing with terrain, but with triggers and units.



First paragraph just outlines your ignorance about that UMS period. You know NOTHING about UMS mapmaking and have been making comments about it. YOU should just stop arguing. YOU have been owned this whole thread. You have been making arguments and I have been replying to each one telling you why it is false. I do hope someone looks at this thread to see why you are such an idiot. I lose my reputation? You are arguing melee in a UMS thread, there are already more people that side with UMS, I have nothing to lose, and as I've said before I think they are equal, unless you keep making Melee look worse and worse through your lame arguments.

Also, and please stop making stupid comments like that, trying to get me to stop arguing, because you know you cannot argue it anymore. Go ahead, keep making false arguments and stupid points, I'll keep replying.

The way I see it, ihatett, everything you've stated as fact is just your opinion. Your claim that it is fact is where we find issue. Devilesk and I, on the other hand, aren't afraid of stating our opinions as opinions.

Another problem I have is your attempts to discredit the evidence upon which I base my opinions. Guess what - you aren't me, you don't know what maps I've played, and you're certainly not getting any more convincing by claiming you do. In fact, you're losing more and more credibility by showing us that you are willing to resort to poisoning the well, ad hominem, and personal attacks, all logical fallacies. If you are unable to make a coherent argument without those three fallacies in hand, you're dead in the water and no one will believe you. Here comes the fun part - you get to launch another personal attack on me, further weakening your own credibility in an argument. By doing so, you're only hurting yourself. Cool, huh? That's how logic works, and if you're unable to build a sound argument, you'll never get any converts. So far, you have 0. Well, I'm done with this thread now, because you're entrenched in your views. But your presence has convinced me to warn people against playing melee from now on, with people like you running around making unsubstantiated claims. I guess you accomplished something, even if it was detrimental to your holy mission's success.

That has nothing to do with my point, look somewhere else to talk crap


Of course, they make UMS maps not melee maps, shut up you are an idiot.



Keyword "some". Hey here's an idea, some jackass melee mapmakers are convinced a UMS map is harder to make than a melee map!



Oh yea, it's also totally logical that someone who plays only melee all the time and melee mapmakes would have much time to play UMS, let alone be decent enough to actually make a good UMS map.



Thanks you prove my point, before ihatett put it this way, melee > programming > UMS.



It's not only me and Nozomu who think's ihatett is wrong either.



Hey why don't you comprehend this, I'm not trying to further the argument that UMS > melee, I was never siding with that. I'm just replying to ihatett's ignorant comments about UMS. And yes I can overuse that word, you know why? Because ihatett overuses generalizations and stereotypes about UMS mapmaking which he knows nothing about. Also my rebuttles are piss poor? Rofl, try taking a look at his and take the blindfold off.



Thats bs, his credibilty is NOT fine, especially when he has no experience with something he's arguing against AND when he ocntinues to make generalizations and stereotypes.

Ouch the pain of a personal attack.

Well if you are too dumb to notice, I was actually referring to ihatett.

Quoted from Nozomu.



You've already shown you can do all of them. GJ

Bounds are considered part of UMS. Money maps are not considered part of real melee. If you are having trouble understanding that, we can easily change what terms we are comparing to "UMS and non money map melee".



Even if it is bold, it's true. Show me one ums maker that understands the game well enough to change the basic rules of melee.

And show me an untrue statement that I made about UMS.



There, you did it again. You're a complete dumbass. You took a comment that made in response to a comment of yours, and made it seem like I was responding to seomthing completely different. I'll quote myself to show everyone what I was responding to:

"If saying that one theoretical UMS map can be harder to make then melee maps ends the arguement, then the fact that all proffesonal melee maps are harder to make than real UMS maps should have ended the arguement a long time ago."

Unbelievable that you would pull that trick again.



What are you talking about? Knowing enough about the game to change melee and knowing enough programming to make a map-editor are completely unrelated.



You keep saying that UMS is harder than melee. I'm saying programming is easier than melee. Therefore, programming is harder than UMS, UMS is easier than melee.

Also, what you do is not melee. When making UMS maps, you do not have to take into account into positional balances, you do not have to balance for several matchups at once, you do not have to test mineral mining speeds, you do not have to do any of the things that casue melee making to be so hard.



OK, you say I'm wrong without saying how. You can't respond, give up.

Tell me how what you were responding to was wrong:





You suck at starcraft, you suck at melee map making, all you can do is kiddie programming/design and you act like you know more than me and that I'm the idiot. Incredible.

ADDITION:
And nozo, stop trying to act intellectual. you haven't made any converts eitgher.

ADDITION:
Devilesk, I'll let psycho respond to what you said, but you realize that your entire strategy for arguing, apperently against him to, is to take what your opponent says and make it seem like they are arguing against something else. You skip over their real points because you can't respond (you couldn't expect more from a newb map maker).

Take a debate course and realize what you are doing is not fair.

Oh yes lets change the thing we are arguing of course, because you cannot argue what you were arguing before. Thats nice.



Hmm instead of bold, I meant untrue and boldly false. It is definitely not true. By believing it is true you are showing that you no nothing at all about UMS.



Hey there YOU go again, you are a complete dumbass. All I'm doing is showing you that EVERYTHING you say can be applied to the opposition.



It's obvious you wouldn't know what I'm talking about if you don't know what you were saying in the first place was false.



I never said UMS is harder than melee, at least not consistently. What your fault is, is that you continue to debate that Melee is harder than UMS, when it is certainly very opinionated and not true. Throughout this whole argument I have said that I think that both are equal. This is without taking into account the fact that your arguments are complete crap and make me think that UMS is harder than melee, due to the fact that you can't make a good argument. But I will overlook that and keep my opinion that it is equal.



Lol, I have to spoon feed you everything, because you are a complete idiot. I said that it was ignorant. The reason? Because you know absolutely nothing about UMS, you haven't made a UMS map you haven't done any triggering. Now you make opinions based on UMS and expect to be credible? Are you kidding me?



Wow are you that blind? The fact that UMS contains everything melee has, basically says that you have to take into account everything you need to take into account for melee and apply it to UMS, while also taking into account what triggers you have and how it affects the game.



You are pathetic. Thanks for the personal attack trying to degrade my character. Hey would you like to quote me on when I have done the same to you, which was not spawned because of you doing the same thing first? You can't find one, you know why? I'm not a complete jackass such as yourself and make attacks on the other person just because you can't argue the topic.



I don't skip over their points, its just that you are too dumb to understand the actual points. I take what they say and apply it to my argument. I don't make it look like they are arguing against something else. Why don't you provide examples next time before making false accusations.



Get this through your head, he's not trying to convert anyone, you ignorant idiot. He's just trying to tell you to stop arguing this stupid point because it's wrong.



I'm sure that you have taken a debate course, and it taught you to attack the other person with personal attacks right? If not then I will take one if you make a real UMS map. Oh wait, if you actually do make a UMS map that is good, then you would have realized that your entire argument is wrong.

I also see that you haven't made any actual arguments recently, could it be because you have nothing else to support your argument that UMS is easier than Melee? I'm not the one making outrageous comments that is all based in opinion, that UMS is easier than Melee.

SEN's long term goals are to gatther as many skilled map makers there are out there in this site. Arguing about what is better or more difficult or less intelligent when it comes to UMS or Melee map making is in essence pointless. You can compare some attributes but for the most part they are different activities. Tangerines will be tangerines, oranges will be oranges. Both taste really good. I do hope some Orangines do become a reality some time in the near future.

The idea is for map makers to have a place to share ideas, learn and work on common projects by themselves or in groups.

I thought about closing this thread but then I thought it be good just to let it run its course and let everyone who wants to keep wasting time debating on a fruitless debate to keep doing so. Vent away. There is an advantage, those debating do learn a "little" more about both UMS and melee map making characteristics.

So by all means keep arguing, it is your free time. Do not forget though to make a few UMS and melee map while your at it.

The thing is, ihatett, I'm not trying to convert anyone. I'm defending my community against your unfounded claims. You know, the claim that UMS is "worse" than melee, which is totally a matter of opinion.

If I sound intellectual, it's because I am an intellectual. I certainly don't see a problem with using my intellect to debate against you. I'm debating just like I always have, using logic. If you can't handle a logical debate, it's you who should go take a debate course. It's funny that you should tell me to stop acting intellectual, just because you can't respond to my statements. Instead of criticizing my method of handling of this situation, I'd prefer it if you responded to my requests for a logical debate.

It looks like Entropy has adequately handled this situation, so let's leave it at that. Just remember that your opinions are not absolute fact, just like my own are not absolute fact.

I feel this is a good spot to stop because devilesk's points aren't the least bit reasonable or threatening to my side anymore. The only one that I'll respond to is that I was changing the topic of debate. I wasn't, I was clarifying for you what was meant by melee maps, because you obviously didn't know. I was arguing the same way the entire time, what I had been saying would make no sense if I was talking about money maps. They aren't the same game, they may as well be ums maps that give you free money.

Finally this topic can die, and btw just for your information, if you haven't realized it already, I was saying that both were equal and you couldn't really compare them in the first place, but you decided to argue it so I just kept countering. But now it can rest.

Your points weren't the least bit reasonable as well I might add, and were just useless, because you were arguing something that couldn't be answered. I guess you had to learn the hard way.

BTW fmpe is part of melee whether you like it or not. They were meant to be played in melee mode and whats that is that. You can't change it no matter how much you hate it, just as some aspects of UMS can't be changed even though some people might not consider them part of UMS. Get over it, you're stuck with FMPE.

I also liked the whole arrogance thing in your last post, "oh I think this is a good place to stop because devilesk's points aren't the least bit reasonable or threatening to my side". What's also funny was that I was arguing and countering against your side, and not making any points towards my side.

I also hope you don't continue this pointless argument in any other topics, and will finally respect some things about UMS. I don't think so though.

I wonder if I can ride a bicycle if I've only learned how to ride a motorcycle.

This debate is actually getting people to think and expand on their ideas.
Keep arguing I say.
Just don't get too aggressive

Devilesk, every single person in this thread has proven more about mapmaking (ums or melee) than you have... all you say is "that isnt the least bit reasonable" and stuff like that. All you do is argue and tell people that they are idiots and you know it all and they know nothing, now you could either irritate us all even more by posting another book-length post, or you could do us all a favor, and leave this forum, and not come back... It's no wonder everyone dislikes you.

The way you described Devilesk is more like ihatett. I don't think you should be resorting to personal insults wesmic.

Wes didn't insult him.

And just look throughout the thread and see who was replying to every arguement with either 1: "you are ignorant about ums" or 2: acting like the other guy's quote was not in direct response to a quoted statement by him but instead said completely out of the blue (thus making the other guy's response make no sense). That is the person who wes was describing.

Pfft, what else am I supposed to say about your comments? Theres nothign else to say about them, because you DO know nothing so therefore I couldn't possibly say anything else, other than go learn about what you are arguing about.

BTW wesmic ihatett was the first one to get aggressive in this thread. Rofl by the way, "that isnt the least bit reasonable", was first used by ihatett and I just used it to give him a taste of his own medicine, but thanks for your comments because I proved my point.

Lol the irony in that is pretty funny.

ROFL Devilesk., are you on crack? UMS mapping is harder than programming? I'm pretty certain you can go download the PHP manual and code SEN v5 for us in a few days, right? Or, better yet, you can buy a book on C++ and recode StarCraft itself in a couple days!

Ihatett, you really need to chill out. You're similar to a Jehovah's witness on steroids. I don't think you understand the roots of staredit.net at all. If you had stumbled upon this site about 6 months ago, this entire melee section wouldn't even be here at all. And here you come, barging into a UMS-rooted community preaching how melee is superior in every way shape or form. Hey, sounds like a certain German dude talking about blond blue-eyed people being better than everyone else.

While I'm still here and I read through this entire topic, allow me to tear apart a logic flaw. You claim Bounds are part of UMS, while money is not part of melee. How come you're allowed to take a major component out of your section while we're stuck having the cream of the crap in ours? Doesn't make sense to me at all. Let me say this: Bounds and money are both part of what the PUBS play, and they both suck. To conclude, I just think you need to play some GOOD melee maps. What you're seeing the pubs play, are 95% of the time NOT good maps. Yet you generalize us as them, which makes no sense. Most of us do not conform to those standards of bound-making. In half of those "OMG H3LP WITH BOUND!!1" topics you mention, there's usually a post there saying "Stop making bounds". Oh, in terms of this UMS mapper making bounds, I've never completed one. So please don't slap your labels on me, either. Oh, before you bring it up either, take note I haven't said which type of mapping was more difficult yet. Maybe there is a way to popularize melee at SEN, but its not the way you're trying to do it. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

Hey, if you actually read what I said, and not fall for ihatett's crap, then you would see I NEVER said UMS is harder than programming. ihatett just twists my words around and everything he says is false and ignorant.



I completely agree, and that's what I said the first time he said that. Maybe you people will listen to moose.



Yes he does make generalizations and stereotypes about the UMS community.



I completely agree. This also matches something I said before in this topic, I'll go find it.

Here it is:



Meh I started out neutral, but the more I argued against ihatett, the more lame the melee side of the argument got.