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first of all, i dont flame the most, ive only posted 4-5 times in this topic whereas youve posted 45 times.... and you dont use logic u just say pointless comments that have nothing to do about anything other than some word errors in others posts... I DO think melee and ums mapmaking are equal in difficulty and skill, and ive at least seen some good maps from ihatett, and ive never ever seen any map made from you. That's what I'm saying. I don't like to pick sides, but i haven't heard anything said about you that i can truly 100% agree with you on

That doesn't matter, you pack a lot of content in those posts

Ok, I'm replying a little late, didn't read most of the thread.

First of all:

What kind of dumbass tries to compare melee with UMS?
They are two COMPLETELY different game types.

Now we'll take a moment to flame those quotes:

Well aparently, I am elite UMS in the Canada. I say we need to mix, just because ignorant people like you don't understand the concept of melee. Melee and UMS have equal challenges, it's a fact and there's no way you can say it isn't.


Oh yea, you need to do more than just describe it, you need to make it, and test it, then say how well balanced the terrain is with TvP, TvT, TvZ, PvP, PvT, PvZ, ZvZ, ZvP, ZvT, making sure no specific race or area of the map has extreme advantage over another. Let's redifine this; In UMS, however, you can far surpass anything in made in melee by having zero build time, 255 upgrades, triggers that create units in masses, and labelling your map "UNIT MASSER v29.4 BETA!". Anyway, you're comparing melee to UMS dumbass. If melee dies out, UMS will die out. One will not keep going, unless you can prove to me it will, and right now, more people play melee than UMS, so think of that.


First part: false. I would believe UMS takes far less skill than it takes to make melee maps. All you do is import sounds, make some triggers(click and drag), and come up with some bullshit terrain. I rarely see any good terrain in UMS maps, with the exception of what we call "extended terrain", which can actually be used in melee as well. More than visually appealing, it must be balanced. Well it's funny how I'm a UMS only guy, but it's true that it does require different strategies.


As I've stated above. And no it has not been balanced by Blizzard. Different races require different strategies, and different strategies are carried out on the different terrain. These people make terrain more balanced than any Blizzard maps. I like the assumption that everybody here only lives in the United States and Korea.


This post his ing sad and funny at the same time. A) Learn some grammar, B) Learn the aspects of maps in different game types. C) Get the off a Starcraft website if you're listing Warcraft III bullshit. And ALSO, I've seen people take about ONE month to make UMS maps, whoever needs 6-11 are lazy. Melee maps need to undergo various tests and modifications in terrain to get it perfectly balanced, thus taking just as--or even longer than making UMS maps. Ok, so you want to compare melee and UMS maps this way dumbshit? Melee maps are about 70% of its limit for making it look pretty. UMS maps however are at about 50% or less of its limit for what's possible for it, considering the maps played on Battle.net are at about 30% of Starcraft's limit. Let's rephrase that last line! UMS has such a larger limit, even though I'm a ing dumbass for comparing UMS to melee this way, you're able to make a shitty RPG that can be so big, that it takes like 50 hours to beat it, 50 hours to download it, and for Single Player only! Love the connectivity.


Melee maps just require more testing than UMS maps, and you have to put more time in testing, using different strategies, then modifying the map to balance it more. But comparing UMS to Melee is just retarded.


Excuse me, but have you even played Rush!? Oh wait... IT WASN'T EVEN RELEASED AND YOU'RE SAYING IT'S THE BEST MAP? Excuse me but that's just stupid. God... This is just beyond pathetic, saying something is the best before it's even released. There is no difference in skill. They are completely different skills. Whoever that is doesn't have to, and shut the up about "Rush!". I extremely doubt Tuxedo-Templar could create a melee map that was balanced in all areas, and had creativity and originality in the terrain. Melee maps aren't missing triggers, and technically it HAS three triggers. One giving the player 50 minerals at start, one for Victory, and one for Defeat. UMS... realistic terrain... HELLO! Don't forget that 50% of all UMS maps contain SQUARES ONLY, and you're calling it realistic? Again comparing UMS to Melee in such a way that makes you... an IDIOT! Again it's harder for UMS only to attempt a melee map, because that person wouldn't know how the to make a balanced melee map.


Mapping terrain is harder than placing locations, each location requireing one click, sounds, each sound one click, and 1000+ triggers which is bullshit, requiring those triggers to be created with a program automatically instead. What is the main topic to you? Saying UMS is better than Melee? Dumbass...


Oh, and the one major question people might just ask me is...
Why am I doing this?
I'm defending an interest... Starcraft: Broodwar

Good point(s) DeathKnight, but that's extreme flaming... Lol

I don't doubt the crediblity of Tuxedo-Templar, since he's proved many times that's he is one of the best, if not best, UMS map makers around.



Hmm...I'm comparing the elite UMS to the elite melee, not the crappy bounds to the elite melee. That's not fair is it? Why don't I just compare the best UMS maps to money maps? Since you have to have the same skill level in each type. Calling me an idiot is really furthering your arguement that you can't hold up a decent point without insulting anyone. And the same goes for melee map makers, they only know terrain ( which includes all the misc. melee stuff that goes with making melee maps. ) unless they extensively study triggering.



So, if you're defending your "interests", that gives you the right to bash people since they don't share the same viewpoints as you? Good logic there.

I wouldn't of replied, but DeathKnight insulted me.



[sarcasm]IDIOT![/sarcasm]

It doesn't matter who made -- er, sorry... is CURRENTLY making that map. It doesn't mean you can assume a map that DOESN'T EVEN EXIST is the best, because as of now that is false, even as an opinion, it would be false.

Ok, let's compare the "elite" UMS map makers and the "elite" Melee map makers for a second... Oh wait, that's generally impossible because both work with two completely different game types.


Then I guess I can't, which doesn't make a difference because the points would be the same. Dumbshit.

The UMS map makers would have to extensively study terrain to make a melee map, so I fail to see how a UMS map maker is superior.


No, it gives me the right to bash people since they create completely "retarded" arguments on how "UMS MAPS CAN HAVE TRIGGERS MELEE MAPS CAN'T LOLOL YOU SUCK LOLol UNITED STATES OWNS YOUL OLOL!1!!!11".

[NOTsarcasm]Retard[/NOTsarcasm]


If you really want to bring up dumbshit arguments on why "UMS maps are superior", then don't post in the ing melee section, or better yet, hit ALT+F4 and don't come to SEN.

I wish I could find a salute smiley for Deathknight.


Here is what I think will be the cure for all the hold-outs:

Download a some VODs (video-on-demand) of pro starcraft matches. Think about how intense what's going on is. Think about how difficult it is to balance for every matchup at every starting position. Think about how much pressure is on someone who has to balance for a televised match, and at the same time make sure that enjoyable-to-watch games are played on it.

This is the site, but read on first.

For a truly legendary game on a legendary map (Hall of Valhalla), view game 1 of the 2001 Coca-Cola Ongamenet Starleague Finals between SlayerS_'BoxeR' and [NC]..Yell0w. Game 5 (I hope that's the one, if not it doesn't matter) of [Oops]Reach vs SlayerS_'Boxer" on Neo Forbidden Zone is an unbeleivable game as well. The quality of the videos is very poor, but it is 100% worth it to watch. If you watch game 1 between boxer and yellow then you will have to sit through the introduction to the players, and because of the nature of the video compression the quality in that part of the movie is astoundingly poor, but you absolutely must watch the game.

I believe all videos have an intro of some sort, and you must sit through those before you can watch the rest of it because they are ASF files. But if you don't watch the games you are seriously missing out. Boxer's game with Garimto are top-notch as well.

There are more fantastic games on that site, and if you still show interest I can show you where recent VODs of games are (like last week recent). Get some popcorn, sit back, and have fun.

And think about how complex and stressful the process is for making maps for matches like those must be.



I could finally edit it. TT

If this is impossible, why was the topic created in the first place? Especially with the first quote stating the opinions of other people being obviously ignorant and wrong.



As I said, I don't see what's so hard to resist the urge to keep your insults to yourself, as calling me an idiot isn't helping your side at all. It only shows that you disrespect other members since of their opinions are different from yours.





This is what I said, as you can see, in reply to the second quote, I said "THE SAME" goes for melee map makers, as I never stated that UMS map makers were superior in that reply. I merely stated that melee map makers go through the same trouble as UMS map makers.



Wow, again, I am completely retarded since my arguement says that UMS is harder, yet I don't see you bashing people that are saying melee is harder to make, maybe I sense a bit of prejudice?

I didn't start the arguement, as I am appauled by the fact that someone has the nerve to state that opinions of others are ignorant and aggorant just since he doesn't UMS map make. I don't see why you're not telling other people to "f off" since they bring up "stupid" arguements about how melee map making is harder. I said harder, not superior. Try looking it up sometime.

If ihatett would of simply stated "Is there a way to popularize melee at SEN" without all the insulting posts, we would of been on our dandy way.

You'll change your mind if you watch the videos.

ALL of you guys are lucky none of the admins are viewing this topic, otherwise all of ya'lls asses would be banned/suspended for flaming

I suppose there isn't a difference between arguements and flaming.

Deathknight, great post, and great way of putting the words... That's the post i believe 100%, i just couldn't find the words myself. Once you know the triggers, there's really not a whole lot more to ums mapmaking (although there is still some other stuff). Plus, after playing MANY games with deathknight (AKA: The GLITCH MASTER), I've seen him glitch up and mess up damn near every UMS game, yet... there's no way to glitch up a melee game (yea yea, u can float drones, but that's not going to give you much of an advantage in a real melee game). UMS maps may take people months to make, but it goes the same way for melee maps, sometimes even longer because they need MUCH more testing...

Ultimo, don't even try to argue this... if you do, your just showing yourself as ignorant as Devilesk...

I think you meant to say ihatett there wesmic

Um, hi? I already said I'm going to lock this if the flaming keeps up.

That's just a retarded post, of course you can't really glitch a melee map, if there's no triggers cause a glitch, such as in a UMS map. Glitching depends on the triggers and the map.

There aint a difference, but what im seeing is flaming, not arguments. Calling people names and saying they're idiots isnt what i call arguing

The topic was created to point out how some people were being ignorant and treating melee map makers like dirt. You can't form an opinion of something that doesn't exist and you havn't seen.


Alright, I'll try respecting your opinion quoted below:




I make UMS maps only.


I havn't seen them.


I will.


Or the Starcraft engine.

No, you along with devilesk (especially dev) keep saying that all the better mapmakers are UMS mapmakers, thats not the case. Your being ignorant in the fact that you say comments like "tux-temp has proven time and time again that hes one of the best UMS mapmakers out there"

That doesn't mean he can make a melee map they are totally different: One requires balancing skills and proper terrain and doodad placement along with symmetrical and race balances and dont forget about strategical unit knowledge and counterability knowledge....


And the other contains trigger know-how and fancy colors and nice wav's

Dev, why did you single out only on that one statement by wes?

edit: And ignore everything that he (and Deathknight for that matter) wrote?

Actually there's three triggers in melee, i thought that's been said... if the UMS map was made good, you wouldn't have to worry about glitches, but whatever


Ihatett, look at his posts on the last three pages, he single's me out in every post, part of the reason is because i beat the man he worships in melee, the second reason is Deathknight is giving perfect reasoning, and he knows that even though he thinks hes the smartest ing person on earth, he knows he can't lie to outsmart deathknight because now he knows the truth.

Yea sure, I really said all better mapmakers are UMS mapmakers, wow you have been following this argument the whole time haven't you? Also a UMS map can have the same balancing skills, proper terrain and doodad placement, symmetry, and race balances and all that as with a Melee map.



I'm sure that's the reason, why I thought my reason was because you are a complete idiot. Thanks for explaining my reason was, you sure know me more than I do.

Also, part of the fact that Melee is different from UMS is that when making a melee map you are already basing it on the actual game using the 3 races and you have to balance the terrain for them, in a UMS you create your own game however you want and balance it however you want to, you can't compare that. If you somehow created a new "melee" type game out of UMS, and created other maps with different terrain based on it, then you could compare it more.

Moose, don't lock this thread... there may be some small flaming and whatnot, but for the most part, its good arguments and explanations

Funny how you say that since people form opinions about God and the end of the Universe. Can you prove they exist, have you seen them? No, yet people still make an opinion on them.







I suppose my sarcasm and wink didn't help you realize I was joking. I'm sure he could make a melee map if he really wanted to, he had the determination and motivation to learn UMSing, why not melee?



S-t-e-r-e-o-t-y-p-e.

Stop giving hypotheticals, it's lame and serves no purpose. That doesn't happen, and for it to be as balanced as broodwar it would take 7 years of millions of games on it.

Anyways, anyone can design units for an RTS, but that doesn't mean it takes anywhere near the effort as making a balanced low-money map. It takes almost no effort, actually. But to make it balanced and the least bit complicated makes it extraordinarily hard, which is why it's never been (and never will be) done using the starcraft UMS engine.

Lol do you not see the difference between UNITS and TERRAIN? Melee mapmaking you are manipulating the terrain to balance it for the units and races. In melee you are manipulating everything to create what you want. First you can design the units, then you would have to create balanced terrain in the map for it to be good.



Which is why UMS is harder.



It does serve a purpose, it's to show the possibilities in UMS and melee. Melee you have control over terrain, minerals, start locations, and doodads, in UMS you have control over everything else.

But really, melee is a map made to be played with the already established races, and UMS is a map that is based on what the creator wants to do with all the units. You can't say one is harder. Each has a differen't purpose and objective when creating the map.