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Rant = Pointless speech. I was just kind of talking about whatever popped into my head as I was typing it. Most of the time "rants are pointless or irrelevant to what ever the topic was originally about.

I'm not afraid of death; im just afraid of the pain i might have to go through.


This:

I don't know if I am afraid of death, because I don't know what is after death.

Sorry, internet been off for a few days now. I'm back. (Doubt you guys cared anyways)

Let me make this clear that this whole god thing, is not a complete matter of opinion. Allow me to explain...

Arguing over what the best song/band/movie/whatever is, that's about 100% opinion.
Arguing over something that currently exists or not, that is not 100% opinion. So don't be going, oh believe in what you want. That's like saying, go ahead, be in denial. Denial is good. Convince yourself there is a hell. (Or not one for that matter)

Now, let me ask you all....
what must atheism do to come as close to proofing that god does not exist, as it possibly can? Cause we all know, theorectically you can't PROVE god doesn't exist. We've already been through that. I'm just asking all you guys out there, what must Atheism do is get as close as they possibly can to proving that god does not exist? (Please don't use time travel as an option. There's a good chance we may never be able to do that)

I do, you're one of the atleast-half-decent-debaters.

Anyways...

Hm. I find it hard to see any evidence against God other then any inconsistancies, hypocricies, or other things that would not befit such an entity, but even any that do exist could just say that God sucks, and then there's thousands of Gods thanks to hundreds of religions, not all of which are inconsistant, completely illogical, hypocritical, and so on...
I'm not saying the Christian God is, just that there exist some that do.

Nah didn't miss you all that much, actually i say that because I didn't even notice.

Now what must athiesm do to prove god does not exist? First of all Atheism is an opinion, yet you said things debating whether god exists or not are not opiniated, or not mainly opiniated. You can't prove god doesn't exist because you don't know everything, there are things we havn't explored and things we don't know as a 100% truth. Most of these things include the possibility of a christian god. You said yourself, what must we do to PROVE GOD DOESN'T EXIST. So provide proof, not doube-sided logic. Provide actual fact to a believer of god that god no god ever has or will exist. In my opinion you can't prove it, just like you can't prove he actually does exist. Some people abuse the idea of god and mock it, other's take it too far and say he was the cause to this great day, or great meal, etc. If you want to prove to us that there is proof god doesn't exist, then prove it, until then the believers of god won't care what you say(they probably won't after either).

I won't mention what athiesm must do, it's what must humans do, anyone can uncover the truth behind our creation. It will just take time and research into the universe. I myself find the idea of evolution to be somewhat inconcievable(mispelled). Somehow we turned from some strange fishy organisms, then slowly evolved to adapt our enviroment, this i can understand. What I can't understand is how Humans have come to be masters over the entire earth, and we can learn. Yet we had no kind of natural defence against predators, and scavengers. How did Humans come to power on this planet? I don't trust in the whole God idea either, all i know is the rate of evolutional brain expansion is inconsistant with the so called evolution pattern of Humans. Humans are an anomnly that didn't evolve like everything else, saying that evolution is true, so i want to see how this managed to happen... Scientists could answer that question for some sort of debate against believers in god.

1 more thing is that i think this thread has been discussed so much and that we've had so many opinions and factors for the "truth" i have come to the conclusion that pondering on this question is an infinite cycle. I say this because could humans have learned how to manipulate lightning, or energy without discovering it can be done? No, they had to go out there and discover it first. We don't have enough resources to prove or disprove god. That is my Opinion, continue to discuss if you want.(the discussing is very intriguing)

Well but see, when the Bible said God created man, it didn't specify what type of man he made. So maybe Adam and Eve were midgets or some of those homowhatthecrap people. As time elapses, the people slowly changed. And when it also said it created the animals, it never specified what types of animals were made also. So really the bible's description of the creation of the world is somewhat ambiguous, but again that's really not what the whole Bible is about.

Kind of slow, eh

Haha.... I've been running around thread killing for a while now....why stop now? Let me show you all "The light," to those who believe in a specific version of god, and to those who don't, but simply can't convince others to do the same.

Before we go on, please read this...

ADDITION:


Ok, so there. Now that we've gotten through truth and reality all over again, lets look back into history, into the origins of "God." He was supposedly discovered by humans. Humans know of nothing other then themselves(mentally) to be totally and completely true without the need for proof. But to say that something else exists without proper proof is ludicrous. And what about those miracles? I've went through a few of my own, and you know what? I'm just a lucky ass, and I always have been. People "wrote" of jesus and his healing powers, people "wrote" of god, people, HUMANS, just like you and I did this. And Humans cannot see truth. So the Muslim god is most likely not real. The Christian god is most likely not real. And the Jewish God is most likely not real.

I will tell you what is "real" though. The concept of god. I believe in this concept, not its existance. Maybe there is some force out there that we only refer to as God.
Maybe its just teh natural occurences of the world. Maybe its just crazy coincedence. Its all a possiblility, and we could argue upon it for hours. But you know what? thats all we can agree on, the possibility. If we can't agree on anything else, we are wasting valuable and precious time that could be spent on other more important things. This is an idiot's arguement, because it cannot be proved through human senses, and it will go on forever, so it must be stopped for the sake of all of those who wish to continue without petty burdens and differences such as this. God is an idea, not a truth, not a reality. We call miracles acts of God, we call natural disasters acts of God. And we base it on Faith. That's not a basis of proof, thats a self motivator. Please people, just kill this thread and be over with it, before it gets anymore out of hand.

I hope this also clears up some stuff, and I've managed to convice a few people that religion is a non-workable way of looking at it. Thats all for now, Dreamer Out.

Ahem, just another addition. For those who refer to the universe and God, science is not religion, it has disproved religion over and over again, and religion has only "updated" to keep up with science[Examples: Copernicus' Heliocentric Theory, Electricity, and the year 2000 being the end of the world(A religious concept)]. Mix Religion with Science, and you have probably already proved yourself as someone who doesn't know how to prove a point. Stop the damn God and Science talk, it simply doesn't go together and its proven over and over again. So stop basing stuff on that too, its idiotic.

I got a bad first impression from your first sentence

Anyway, most of that has already been said before and thought of, just maybe not all summed up there. I haven't seen any "light" though.

I think that you can still argue this though, but you have to argue it in terms of the boundaries and things we set on ourselves, such as language and using logic. If you say you can't depend on language or even assume what is real or not then everything is pointless. You have to at least assume some basics. After you do that you can still argue something.



That's why I've said I think religion is a way to explain life, its meaning, and creation that can't be explained so that people have something to believe in. Just like how parents might say babies come from the stork and not from a mother to make it easier at that time for the kid to understand.



People who reply here and try to argue it have nothing better to do than to prove god's existence or not



Never! That's not the spirit of this thread, it's not just to simply come in and say whether god exists or not, that's not the real point. It's to try to use language and our perception of the world to TRY and argue it. Though it may be pointless that's what this really was for. If not then every single debate could be ended this way

Your right!!! What was I thinking? People are stubborn and refuse to give up being "right," thats about one of the few things they exist for, and thats the idiociy of their existance. Why am I not an idiot? I just gave up being right infront of your face. Upgrading upon your programming makes you smart. I don't think your an idiot, because you have reasonable arguements, and you also admitted it was pointless, but I think you're too stubborn for your own good. Goodluck with whatever you do. And lets be buds, I love having smart buds that argue with me, it brings out the best in intellectuals.(Not to say that I dont like people that arent as smart! I like having friends! this is just a specific type!)

*FallenDreamer thinks to self: Phew, nice save!

P.S.: I didnt mean to sound mean, but it annoys me to think that people can't just be reasonable for once. Hell, even I tried religion, but I also tried out science, so now im here. =\

Sorry for Quoting all that, but it's better then taking out bits and pieces(lazy )

1)FallenDreamer in my eyes you are cocky. You talk like you know oh so much and are oh so smart, well good for you if you think so. Everything you said has been said in this thread, you just put it into 1 straight out post.
2)Yeah I didn't see any revealing light either
3)As said, this thread isn't about coming up with a neutral solution or answer, it's to debate and discuss. We've been doing it pretty nicely so far, people who blindly follow god, disregard god, don't care, or could care less.
4)As a whole, the world does not see god as an answer to things. God is a solution to the question of our existance and difference to other beings on this planet, totally different...As estimated fact, the percent of the earth that believes in SOME FORM OF A GOD, is 72%. Those who believe in 1 specific god....12%....Kinda sad? Yes it is. Oh and if you think the Roman Catholic Church is supposed to be insanely huge, just remember most of their followers don't even follow the proper regulations of their bible or book of prophecy. Making them non-believers(most of the time).
5)Incase you didn't know, your view is an Agnostic standpoint, which consumes an estimated 61% of the world. Of which mostly rely on facts and figures for answers.
6)Not trying to be picky or rude, but you said things like They wrote jesus had healing powers and other things, but you also said that belief is in the eye of the beholder(summarizing what you said). So basically you said you don't disapprove the bible(christian) but your comment says that you don't think Jesus was real, or a few other things. Just trying to say this looks like you contradicted yourself and it stood out as I read your post.
7)By combining science and religon you get the most potent arguements and conflict sources. Why stop contrasting them?

Now besides the cockyness in your post, i mostly agree with what you said. A solution to this question can not be reached with our current resources of knowledge, and Human Logic contradicting with faith doesn't have a worthwhile solution, only pointless ones, no positive outcome for either side. Also not to sound smart or anything, but i posted just about everything you said above in seperated posts. It's been discussed, and no one has argued it, we only decided to continue debating on things. Oh yeah, what's wrong with wasting 10 minutes of your day to post worthwhile information for discussion purposes when in the average man's day they wouldn't encounter any of this knowledge.(this is too whoever said this thread is pointless and a waste of time)

To Devilesk:
I just figured out that this arguing is an endless cycle? I don't believe i just figured out that, this was preknown by me before the thread started. Thanks for nitpicking through my post, I'll return the favor some day.

One more thing... Monkeys Rule!
Nothing beats the intelligent Monkey picking his wife's butt and licking his finger!

Tdnfthe1: Actually, no, I'm not cocky, this is just my opinion, and sorry, emotions cannot be properly displayed on the internet. I actually have allot more to say, I do believe the person Jesus was real, but I don't really think all that other stuff is. The truth is, I didnt really want to waste that much time, Im doing homework, damnit! ><

And just so you know, I really do have reasonable arguments for this stuff, Im just better at it in real life, I don't have as much vigor when typing, so I get bored fast lol .

ADDITION:
And as for repeating previous stuff, forgive me, I'm too lazy to read it all

Anyways, like I asked before...

What proof must there be to prove/disprove god exists? I tried to get you guys to go first, but I guess I mind as well.

Ways you can find out god exists 100% (Unless you get all matrixy): You die, and go to heaven.
Or you see God himself comes down as a 50000 ft person and goes, "Yo, what's up? Sorry, been kinda slacking off lately. I've come to finally deliver world peace, and end world hungry. Sorry about that guys, Alarm clock was about a few thousand years off."

Ways you can prove god doesn't exist: You die.

My point is the same point as you guys. You can't prove god doesn't exist, unless you die of course. So, what is the closest it can come to? I mean, ever.

Think about it, seriously. Shouldn't the religious side have almost no problem proving to us that god exists, considering if he existed. Seriously. They talk about a being that's insanely powerful, and controls everything. And it has angels and stuff like that everywhere, and etc. Where is the major difficulty? Is God HIDING? Why? to test our faith? WTF? Don't test people if they believe in you or not. Test people if they are good or not. Cause that would make a LOT more sense.

Now if God doesn't exist, is this the limit in which we can reach when it comes to proofing he doesn't exist? It'll be way too arrogant for me to say it is, so I need some feedback on this.

Lol what the hell is that? Now that is some cockyness I was never even talking about right/wrong. This was just about debating whether god exists or not through use of human logic and language and thoughts. Sure essentially no one can prove or disprove it, but you can sure give reasons and ideas about your beliefs.



You're too arrogant/cocky for your own good, or at least that is how it seems in your writing.



Now that is the kind of fruity/cocky statement that contributes to your whole cocky personality. The ! is over the top too

Overall I did agree with what you were saying, but it doesn't contribute "much" to the actual argument, because the point isn't really to end it.



It wasn't a nitpick, it was a comment based on your profound conclusion
I was relating it to when I realized it was an endless cycle, which in my eyes was much earlier than when you just said you realized it.

1) and 2) of your post I agree completely with too



Most can, depending on the style of your language and how you structure sentences. Mostly you can sort of sense how the person is basically feeling when you are reading it. If not just use lots of emoticons

I also sense a little of you thinking you are superior to everyone else, some mocking, and patronizing including the arrogance and cockyness.



That's why it wasn't a good impression to just jump in at the first post and say "I'll kill this thread now with what I'm about to say" basicly.

Really the only thing that shows God exsist is the Bible, still it seems unbelivable.
You can only have faith for it. If you dont like the Bible or have to faith then there is nothin to debate


*he could just be somthing to get us threw our days or he is real. time shall tell

Then, is there any proof that the History Book existed?

And, why can't God exist? If everything just came out in the middle of infinite or time was created or dimensions were created and the universe is infinite but we were created in the middle, then why can't God exist? If i think about it, I think that life, or anything can't start by itself...

History book: Yes, there is proof. The difference between the bible and the history book is that history was recorded through a scientific perspective, naming specific dates for when certain events occured, who had participated in those events, the results and its effect on the world, and other such scientic information, basically recording anything as close as it can get to fact, and leaving possibilites as just possibilites. And like snipe said, believing in God's existance is entirely based on your faith. Personally, I don't, but thats just me. I think religion is like just a mental calming for people who end up thinking about stuff, and it starts to get too serious for them. I mean, it really is a creepy thought to think about nothingness, and death as not existing. And the speculation of the beginning of the universe is debate that has gone on for centuries past... honestly, I think that scientists will be more accurate in their beliefs, but religious people won't have to think so hard about life and their own existance. All they have to do is have faith, accept it, and move on (and follow all the other rules of their religion too).

But remember, there are people who have tried to abuse religion and manipulate its peoples' faith. So are you really following your "God's(s')" [used because each religion has different representations of their God(s)] will? Or is someone trying to manipulate your faith in your belief for their purposes? This could also contribute to whether or not your God(s) really exists...

Er...yeah, thats also kinda big. I've been sure to try and sound more humble in this one, and try not to put too much cockyness into it.

Tell me how I did please.

OmgZ!11 CheeZe is replying! Take Cover!



Yeah, I'm pretty sure I got one in my backpack. *Checks backpack* Yup, it 's there.


He can.


He can. But it's not likely a super strong invincible god will appear before things like... imperfect humans. That's such a violation of entropy!


I agree. But God is also part of "anything" so he couldn't start by himself either.


Yeah, I agree. But I think a better would be "excuse". Try replacing "solution" with "excuse". Suprisingly, it means the samething!


"Estimated fact"? You know, before you start calling things facts, you may want to look up some sources. Some very helpful ones can be found via google while specific searchs can be found on wikipedia.org.

No offense or anything, Tdnfthe1, but your reply to my original huge post you requested wasn't anywhere near what I expected. But you can try again if you want.

people who dont believe in religon is eather

A:computer nerd
B:only believes facts
C:all of the above

Actually, god being before humans is entropy by definition. things naturally try to get more chaotic, not less chaotic. That's entropy. (chaotic as in disorganization)

God is so unorganized.

Actually, what I meant was for god to appear from a place that has no heat is a violation, then going to humans is ... weirder.

I thought entropy was like losing energy and stuff. You have to keep adding energy to remain the same. Like eventually without some sort of added energy you will lose energy.

And I also thought that things try to be stable, not unstable...


Rofl that's crap.

Off topic: Just thought of this... aparently, followers of God achieve "immortality"(eternal existence, not real immortality) by having their soul go to heaven, hell, or their purgatory. They go on, one way or another.

As for the dude that has no religion, he gets to have his name in the obituary. Fun fact. =P

(This is only concerning everyday people, not famous, powerful, or influencial people or anything)

On Topic: Ok, first off, I'd just like to say that if God really is all knowing, and a grand creator, why would he go ahead the horrible mistake of creating humans? Maybe he was bored? =\ Still, from what I've heard(not what is fact), we are all sinners (in the really serious religions) and we all must repent for our sins. Well, wouldn't it be easier to just have never made us or killed us off in the first place?

Earth + Humans = A worse hell then any God would ever be able to cook up.

Earth - Humans = Eden.

So there ya go. And as for my reasoning...well, have you checked the news recently? Anyway, thats just what I think.

That wasn't really "on topic", it didn't show whether god exists or not, this topic is sort of dying, at least not many real points are being made.

One thing I wanted to reply to before about the bible being like a history book was that history books have more evidence to back them up, they are BASED on other things, they aren't the only thing written about a certain subject. Also think about things like gravity and other "laws" we have. Those have gone through a tremendous amount of testing and expirementing and there is plenty of evidence for us to safely assume that it is true. Even with theories there is a lot of evidence to support one. Science is all about testing and proving what things aren't, I think. You can make an outrageous claim, but it has to be proven.