Report, edit, etc...Posted by cfro7211 on 2005-02-02 at 20:48:23
This is a topic that can be researched for a long, long time, and yet one will come to no conclusion, yet it is quite interesting to debate.
The subject?
Did God create us to choose how we live our lives, or Did he plan out our entire lives(as is referenced by the term "God's plan")? If the latter is true, we therefore posses no control over our lives.
Modern Western stylized thinking tends to lean towards the concept of free will, yet the Bible offers evidence that questions that very thought.
Take Romans 9.
Most American Christians will say that you can choose to follow God at any time, and that God is forgiving to all, despite Romans 9.
So what do you believe?
The subject?
Did God create us to choose how we live our lives, or Did he plan out our entire lives(as is referenced by the term "God's plan")? If the latter is true, we therefore posses no control over our lives.
Modern Western stylized thinking tends to lean towards the concept of free will, yet the Bible offers evidence that questions that very thought.
Take Romans 9.
QUOTE(Romans 9:17-18(New Living Translation))
For the Scriptures say that God told Pharaoh, "I have appointed you for the very purpose of displaying my power in you, and so that my fame might spread throughout the earth." So you see, God shows mercy to some just because he wants to, and he chooses to make some people refuse to listen
Most American Christians will say that you can choose to follow God at any time, and that God is forgiving to all, despite Romans 9.
So what do you believe?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Neiji on 2005-02-02 at 22:05:34
Plz don't take the Bible literally.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by cfro7211 on 2005-02-02 at 22:15:49
QUOTE(Johnznothere78 @ Feb 2 2005, 08:05 PM)
Plz don't take the Bible literally.
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QUOTE(Johnznothere78 @ Jan 17 2005, 09:53 PM)
Okay, I'm catholic too.
what you just said contradicts you entire belief system. what you said was rather unintelligent and unbelievable...
You profess to be a Catholic.
Ergo, you believe that Jesus Christ is the Risen Savior and Lord of all, the one true Messiah.
Now, where can we find the foundation for such a belief? THE BIBLE!
and you say, dont take it literally?
QUOTE(Johnznothere78 @ Today, 06:54 PM)
Go, Milleniumarmy! I'm wit ya, as I am a believer of God too! Cheeze is just another obstacle in life, like marajuana to get in the way of God... (I learned that in a retreat i went to! biggrin.gif )
If you don't take it literally, you'd be saying the same thing that High said:
QUOTE(High @ Jan 18 2005, 01:16 AM)
What many people do (both the regligious and the athests, including many people on this site) is that they take everything literally, Jesus was probally in a coma or something and Lazurus was probally just knocked out cold. Get me?
You are a hypocrite and should think twice before posting in this thread.
BTW, I was serious about this thread.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by DT_Battlekruser on 2005-02-02 at 22:27:27
QUOTE
Did God create us to choose how we live our lives, or Did he plan out our entire lives(as is referenced by the term "God's plan")? If the latter is true, we therefore posses no control over our lives.
Does god exist? That should be a viable opinion.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by cfro7211 on 2005-02-02 at 22:32:44
QUOTE(DT_Battlekruser @ Feb 2 2005, 08:27 PM)
Does god exist? That should be a viable opinion.
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I submit that God exsists. Note that under the title i have
QUOTE
[In the Realm of Christianity]
therefore implying that it is a debate in which God is assumed to be real and exsistant--i guess there would be no worth in this thread if God was not considered real on this matter, now would there?
EDIT: and yes DT, your opinion over whether God exsists is viable and is an option. However, i dont see how it applies to the topic.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by MillenniumArmy on 2005-02-02 at 22:51:10
Wow, i suddenly see so many christians standing up now. At first it use to be me only in the original god thread and my arguments got more and more redundant...
Same with the atheists. Seems like more of us are joining this religious discussion now. Guess it's because our arguments have now become more thoughtful and meaningful...
Same with the atheists. Seems like more of us are joining this religious discussion now. Guess it's because our arguments have now become more thoughtful and meaningful...
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Felagund on 2005-02-03 at 20:13:27
Hey, I see a few agnostics like myself among the community now too. Woot open-mindedness! If a god does exist, he gave us free will. Unless you would like to think that he didn't, in which case my now calling him the universe's biggest jerk was planned by none other than him and therefore cannot hold me accountable.
By your "logic" or perhaps a god's logic, theoretically if people had the same type of thinking as the latter option and came into control of this country, they would do whatever "they" wanted, as it was by a god's will and no one could really be held accountable for anything. Wouldn't that make you feel like a toy being played with by a little kid? I believe he, if he exists, gave us free will.
By your "logic" or perhaps a god's logic, theoretically if people had the same type of thinking as the latter option and came into control of this country, they would do whatever "they" wanted, as it was by a god's will and no one could really be held accountable for anything. Wouldn't that make you feel like a toy being played with by a little kid? I believe he, if he exists, gave us free will.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Kame on 2005-02-04 at 00:26:44
In order for something to be predetermined, there has to be time.
Time is man made; it wasn't created by God.
God is everywhere at once, isn't he? He's in the future, past, and present. Only he knows what's going on. I wonder if maybe there are paths, like a tree sort of, that a human can choose to go down, but God knows what'll happen no matter which one you choose.
You can't compare the two; time does not exist where God is.
Time is man made; it wasn't created by God.
God is everywhere at once, isn't he? He's in the future, past, and present. Only he knows what's going on. I wonder if maybe there are paths, like a tree sort of, that a human can choose to go down, but God knows what'll happen no matter which one you choose.
You can't compare the two; time does not exist where God is.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by DT_Battlekruser on 2005-02-04 at 01:02:46
Time is arbitrary. Time does not exist. For example, define a second.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Felagund on 2005-02-04 at 17:31:48
However, this is not a topic discussing the importance or the relevance of time, it is discussing free will or oppression, as I will call it.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Kame on 2005-02-04 at 19:03:59
It has everything to do with time. You cannot predetermine something if you have no time to predetermine by.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Felagund on 2005-02-05 at 10:39:48
Time is as real as any other natural event. What we call time is merely our (humanity's) way of putting events into an order of sorts. It has to exist or everything would 1) happen spontaneously or 2) not happen at all. Time is as real as the length of your room, or the width of a chair. When you type the word "Hello" did you type all five letters at once? Or did you type first H, then e, then l, then l, then o, after the previous letter was typed?
If a god did not create time, it existed on its own accord. I prefer to take the latter.
I see your amazing logic at work here. Without time, how is there a future, past, or present? There is only now, which is everything. According to that line of thought, right now your great-great-grandmother is being born.
Time is a conception, but it is as real as anything spatial. If you dismiss time you may as well dismiss science altogether.
*Edit* Point made, let's get back to topic. Thank you.
If a god did not create time, it existed on its own accord. I prefer to take the latter.
QUOTE
God is everywhere at once, isn't he? He's in the future, past, and present.
QUOTE
You can't compare the two; time does not exist where God is.
I see your amazing logic at work here. Without time, how is there a future, past, or present? There is only now, which is everything. According to that line of thought, right now your great-great-grandmother is being born.
Time is a conception, but it is as real as anything spatial. If you dismiss time you may as well dismiss science altogether.
*Edit* Point made, let's get back to topic. Thank you.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by cfro7211 on 2005-02-05 at 18:58:27
QUOTE(WoA-Felagund @ Feb 5 2005, 08:39 AM)
Time is as real as any other natural event. What we call time is merely our (humanity's) way of putting events into an order of sorts. It has to exist or everything would 1) happen spontaneously or 2) not happen at all. Time is as real as the length of your room, or the width of a chair. When you type the word "Hello" did you type all five letters at once? Or did you type first H, then e, then l, then l, then o, after the previous letter was typed?
If a god did not create time, it existed on its own accord. I prefer to take the latter.
I see your amazing logic at work here. Without time, how is there a future, past, or present? There is only now, which is everything. According to that line of thought, right now your great-great-grandmother is being born.
Time is a conception, but it is as real as anything spatial. If you dismiss time you may as well dismiss science altogether.
*Edit* Point made, let's get back to topic. Thank you.
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If a god did not create time, it existed on its own accord. I prefer to take the latter.
I see your amazing logic at work here. Without time, how is there a future, past, or present? There is only now, which is everything. According to that line of thought, right now your great-great-grandmother is being born.
Time is a conception, but it is as real as anything spatial. If you dismiss time you may as well dismiss science altogether.
*Edit* Point made, let's get back to topic. Thank you.
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i believe that FireKame is relating to the fact that God works out side of time.
The best way to think of it is like this: God is a circle--He had no start (he always was) and has no end (he will never die, fall from power, or w/e). Humans, on the other hand, are straight lines--its very clear that there is a start point and an end point.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Felagund on 2005-02-05 at 23:48:33
Can we agree that time does exist though?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Kame on 2005-02-06 at 01:32:43
Felagund, we've moved beyond that. We need to get back on topic. If you would like to discuss whether or not time exists, start a new topic.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by PearS on 2005-02-06 at 01:51:09
God created us to live our lives as we want, but he knows what the final outcome will be. This makes some wonder, whats the point? The point is that you get to live! I also see it as a test to getinto heaven kinda.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Rhiom on 2005-02-06 at 05:00:37
Does time exist? good question, but it's all relative anyway, the only way we could judge if time actually existed is by measring it relative to everyhitng else. and becuase everyhitng else is all relative to everyhting else, if we assume the universe to exist we would also have to assume that time exists, and visa versa.
As for the topic of free will this is a very interesting thing. I ahve been thinken about it for a while now and have considerd many points. My opinion on the matter is that we all have free will. that we all have the ability to make disicions. but that god already knows the choices that we will make. God in his infinite wisdom understands exactly how we think and how we will react, and this whole facae of the universe is for one thing. It is so that when one day we come to be judge by god we can know the decisions we would make. This makes me relate to the bible versus about Adam and Eve. I know I have heard the phrase "if i were there i wouldnt have taken the apple", but the fact of the matter is that everyone would have taken the apple. But everyone feels that they might have done it different. This si the reason for the existence as we know it, so that one day when we are judged we actually know that we made those bad choices. So in theory it would be possible for god to tell us how we lived out our lives but we would not accept it, but becuase god is juste instead of showing us how we would have lived, he instead lets us actually do it. So in this way i do believe that we have free will.
As for the topic of free will this is a very interesting thing. I ahve been thinken about it for a while now and have considerd many points. My opinion on the matter is that we all have free will. that we all have the ability to make disicions. but that god already knows the choices that we will make. God in his infinite wisdom understands exactly how we think and how we will react, and this whole facae of the universe is for one thing. It is so that when one day we come to be judge by god we can know the decisions we would make. This makes me relate to the bible versus about Adam and Eve. I know I have heard the phrase "if i were there i wouldnt have taken the apple", but the fact of the matter is that everyone would have taken the apple. But everyone feels that they might have done it different. This si the reason for the existence as we know it, so that one day when we are judged we actually know that we made those bad choices. So in theory it would be possible for god to tell us how we lived out our lives but we would not accept it, but becuase god is juste instead of showing us how we would have lived, he instead lets us actually do it. So in this way i do believe that we have free will.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by cfro7211 on 2005-02-07 at 01:31:19
QUOTE(PearS @ Feb 5 2005, 11:51 PM)
God created us to live our lives as we want, but he knows what the final outcome will be. This makes some wonder, whats the point? The point is that you get to live! I also see it as a test to getinto heaven kinda.
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"a test to get into heaven kinda?"
yes the point is that you get to live, i agree. but also, we get to live so that we might glorify God.
so yes, a test to get into heaven as well, but thats not the words i would choose for it.
QUOTE
My opinion on the matter is that we all have free will. that we all have the ability to make disicions. but that god already knows the choices that we will make. God in his infinite wisdom understands exactly how we think and how we will react, and this whole facae of the universe is for one thing. It is so that when one day we come to be judge by god we can know the decisions we would make.
so your saying God is just a really good fortune teller? thats what i used to believe, but now i'm not so sure...
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Drj12 on 2005-02-07 at 18:45:01
Ok, the future is predetermined, no matter how hard you try to change it. Just imagine for a moment that we could traved through time. Say I went foreward in time 5 minutes and saw myself spilling milk. Say then I go back in time and dont spill the milk. The future was already predetermined, but the thing i saw when i traveled in time is only one outcome. So, God really does give us free will, but he already knows the outcome of all our actions. He can know every single possible outcome of every situation but lets you make the decision.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by re_casper on 2005-02-07 at 19:13:02
QUOTE(cfro7211 @ Feb 2 2005, 05:48 PM)
This is a topic that can be researched for a long, long time, and yet one will come to no conclusion, yet it is quite interesting to debate.
The subject?
Did God create us to choose how we live our lives, or Did he plan out our entire lives(as is referenced by the term "God's plan")? If the latter is true, we therefore posses no control over our lives.
Modern Western stylized thinking tends to lean towards the concept of free will, yet the Bible offers evidence that questions that very thought.
Take Romans 9.
Most American Christians will say that you can choose to follow God at any time, and that God is forgiving to all, despite Romans 9.
So what do you believe?
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The subject?
Did God create us to choose how we live our lives, or Did he plan out our entire lives(as is referenced by the term "God's plan")? If the latter is true, we therefore posses no control over our lives.
Modern Western stylized thinking tends to lean towards the concept of free will, yet the Bible offers evidence that questions that very thought.
Take Romans 9.
QUOTE(Romans 9:17-18(New Living Translation))
For the Scriptures say that God told Pharaoh, "I have appointed you for the very purpose of displaying my power in you, and so that my fame might spread throughout the earth." So you see, God shows mercy to some just because he wants to, and he chooses to make some people refuse to listen
Most American Christians will say that you can choose to follow God at any time, and that God is forgiving to all, despite Romans 9.
So what do you believe?
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Yes you can be a Christain anytime you want. You can be a Christain if you are 1year-old however it wouldnt make much sense. But then again God hardend the Pharoahs heart so that the Isrealites will believe, but the Isrealites were not very strong believers.
God also hardend Felixes heart from Acts 23:23-35, 24:1-27. You can read it yourself. But at the end Felix keeps Paul in jail for over 2 years, constantly calling him to tell him more about "The Way" but after those 2 years, he still didn't set Paul free OR become a Christain. You see there are many "Felixes" around you...
God has those people who are friendly but do not really want to know the Gospel. If you try they might, you get more experience.
But once a Christian it should change your life. If it does nothing to you, whats the point of being a Christian.
Jesus said in John 21:18-19 NLT
QUOTE
18The truth is, when you were young, you were able to do as you liked and go wherever you wanted to. But when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and others will direct you and take you where you don't want to go." 19Jesus said this to let him know what kind of death he would die to glorify God. Then Jesus told him, "Follow me."
Mathew 4:19 NLT
QUOTE
19Jesus called out to them, "Come, be my disciples, and I will show you how to fish for people!"
That you should spread the Gospel through out the world. So this is why you must be a little different then you were a day ago before you were a christain. THat means you could choose what you want and choose what to do. But God knows what is going to happen if you choose this or that. Since God knows, he can tell you what are the consequences. If your judgements think that you wouldnt be hurt or you wouldnt mind, then God may also tell you and "prophisise" that you will do that.
Prophisizing to God is like "umm... ya *snap* done"
Report, edit, etc...Posted by aznwolfstein on 2005-02-08 at 20:28:46
the way i see it, it doesnt matter
if you found out that free will existed through some long and pointless mathematical equation, what are you gonna do? stop doing everything and be content that its your own choice that you chose? it doesnt matter. it would be worse if you discovered there was no free will, if there was no free wil, what would you do? stop doing everything and be content knowing that you were predestined to at that moment, be doing exactly that....
whats the difference? i mean, the only thing i could see that matters if you were predestined to be a murderer, then, in today's court, you could make a stand saying that you were predestined to do it...but you know what? the government will have a new reformed law and fortune tellers might see a rise in profits
in 100 years, this might be remembered, but it wont have a profound effect that would last
if you found out that free will existed through some long and pointless mathematical equation, what are you gonna do? stop doing everything and be content that its your own choice that you chose? it doesnt matter. it would be worse if you discovered there was no free will, if there was no free wil, what would you do? stop doing everything and be content knowing that you were predestined to at that moment, be doing exactly that....
whats the difference? i mean, the only thing i could see that matters if you were predestined to be a murderer, then, in today's court, you could make a stand saying that you were predestined to do it...but you know what? the government will have a new reformed law and fortune tellers might see a rise in profits
in 100 years, this might be remembered, but it wont have a profound effect that would last
Report, edit, etc...Posted by cfro7211 on 2005-02-08 at 20:33:37
QUOTE(aznwolfstein @ Feb 8 2005, 06:28 PM)
the way i see it, it doesnt matter
if you found out that free will existed through some long and pointless mathematical equation, what are you gonna do? stop doing everything and be content that its your own choice that you chose? it doesnt matter. it would be worse if you discovered there was no free will, if there was no free wil, what would you do? stop doing everything and be content knowing that you were predestined to at that moment, be doing exactly that....
whats the difference? i mean, the only thing i could see that matters if you were predestined to be a murderer, then, in today's court, you could make a stand saying that you were predestined to do it...but you know what? the government will have a new reformed law and fortune tellers might see a rise in profits
in 100 years, this might be remembered, but it wont have a profound effect that would last
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if you found out that free will existed through some long and pointless mathematical equation, what are you gonna do? stop doing everything and be content that its your own choice that you chose? it doesnt matter. it would be worse if you discovered there was no free will, if there was no free wil, what would you do? stop doing everything and be content knowing that you were predestined to at that moment, be doing exactly that....
whats the difference? i mean, the only thing i could see that matters if you were predestined to be a murderer, then, in today's court, you could make a stand saying that you were predestined to do it...but you know what? the government will have a new reformed law and fortune tellers might see a rise in profits
in 100 years, this might be remembered, but it wont have a profound effect that would last
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in all reality, it does not change how you live your life, by any means. the point is that iit makes you think.
the thing that really confused me was the conecpt that God loved us all, yet according to the pasage i quoted, it seemes like he is dooming some to hell, despite the love he has for them.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by aznwolfstein on 2005-02-08 at 20:35:06
im pretty bad at religions and stuff, but i thought it was Jesus that loved us all but God had his own selective program...
Report, edit, etc...Posted by cfro7211 on 2005-02-08 at 20:40:44
QUOTE(aznwolfstein @ Feb 8 2005, 06:35 PM)
im pretty bad at religions and stuff, but i thought it was Jesus that loved us all but God had his own selective program...
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God has three parts, but is one. its a really hard concept, something that our feeble minds probably cannot understand. the entity we know as "God" is known as the Holy Trinity, (The Father [God], the Son [Jesus],and the Holy Ghost [Spirit]). Together they rule as one, and love us equally.
However, thier actions affect us differently. Jesus came to save us, as the messiah, God judges us, and the Spirit guides us (when Jesus ascended into heaven, he sent the spirit to be with us and live in us [those who believe] because he would no longer be here with us.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Rhiom on 2005-02-09 at 16:33:15
QUOTE(cfro7211 @ Feb 7 2005, 12:31 AM)
"a test to get into heaven kinda?"
yes the point is that you get to live, i agree. but also, we get to live so that we might glorify God.
so yes, a test to get into heaven as well, but thats not the words i would choose for it.
so your saying God is just a really good fortune teller? thats what i used to believe, but now i'm not so sure...
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yes the point is that you get to live, i agree. but also, we get to live so that we might glorify God.
so yes, a test to get into heaven as well, but thats not the words i would choose for it.
so your saying God is just a really good fortune teller? thats what i used to believe, but now i'm not so sure...
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yes, i did say that as my exact wording but the feeling behind it was trying to tread lightly on the subject of it being a test. What I was trying to emphasis was this, becuase of human nature we are unable to accept other people tellig us that we made certain disicions are thatwe are going to make certain decisions. God, having made us, knows this tendency of human nature, becuase of this god in his infinite mercy decided to compensate. Suppose that snese god is omnipotent, that he didnt actaully let us live but instead judged us all right from the start, on the pretext that if we had lived we would have choosen the wroung decisions. none of us would have been able to accept that judgement as being fair, expecially those condemmed to hell. Becuase God understands the needs of human beings to actually live out their own expienrences, he let us live a life on Earth, where we are free to make wroung decisions for our selves, so that we know that god is justified in condemming some and uplifting others. So this is a test in a way... but i dont like to dwell on that, so much as to think of Gods mercy in letting people live there life opposed to telling them what it owould have been like had they lived it.
Edit: the practicle aspects of what i am saying applied to free will would be this: God lets you make choices and lets us have free will, but he already knows what choices we will make.