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Infinity. Infinity is a common topic brought up in religion interestingly enough: God is infinitely good, the world has lasted for infinity, "Can God make a stone so heavy that he himself cannot lift it", infinity seems to pop up everywhere!

And although it is abundant, the word infinity is often misused and categorized incorrectly. Although this specific thread is a challenge to atheists, please share your thoughts upon infinity. I am making a mini-series of these short quip-threads, which should slowly break down false barriers.


I have heard around three times that, and I paraphrase, Then, after stating that, they make the claim that the earth has always existed. I could waste my telling showing their fallacy by their circular reasoning, but my challenge should be what jeers at the foundation, not my rash words.

If you can prove to me that infinity exists in the tangible world, I will give you infinite dollars!

It is merely a concept...

Ok, so can time be infinite? Since Time is "said" to pass not be consumed that makes it infinite correct? And also Colors should be infinite as well. If infinity didnt exist, i doubt we could do a lot of things. Infinitely should more be a word to oppose "an amount of time that Humans would find uncomprehensional to measure to, or from". Which means something that would have happened so long ago, or take so long to happen that we Humans just say it is infinite, or part of infinity. Take for example People say that the universe will keep expanding infinitely.
1-The Expansion Theory is a "theory" in it self. so how can it be 100% true?
2-If there was a theory of speed that the universe expands(and there is). Scientists would never mention to people saying it is irrelevant. Because it is CLOSE to infinite, yet infinite never ends, and cannot be measured, timed, stopped, or began. So if expansion theory has a measurement, how can it be infinite?
3-The Universe, is just another "infinite" we have made up to name the "infinite" amount of area that we have yet to be able to measure. If we could measure the area of space, or it's rate of extension no one would ever put space and infinite together.

Thus Human's own theories state that there is no "real infinite" only infinite to that which we cant measure. And if you're a hard stoned "atheist" then you'd best read well before posting.

P.S. Define tangible.

Actually, Time is probably the first intangible non-infinite concept I currently know of. I will speak of this later. So you're saying that infinity cannot exist in the tangible world, because infinity is often misused with "a really long time"?

That's quite true about infinity. If earth has a beginning, then at this very point in time where I finished writing the word "moo", there is some finite amount of "time" which has past. The theory of expansion is based upon a Law that states events that happen in the past work the same way today. An example is if 10,000 years ago water eroded this type of rock in this type of way, then today it would produce the same outcome.

From my knowledge, the word "tangible" means "to be able to touch" (touch as in one of the 5 senses). Wind is tangible, because it is felt. Oppositely, color, although seen, is not tangible because it cannot be felt. Usually, intangible things cannot be seen, smelt, or heard either, making them easy to distinguish. Such examples are: thoughts, feelings, words, God, and numbers. Color is an interesting exception, since it can be seen. Tangible items are the things that can be touched. Easy examples are: your body, the computer screen, pencils, trophies, and paper. Some tangible items, such as wind stated above, cannot be seen, but since it can be felt it is tangible.

Tangible and Intangible are often mistaken with Concrete and Abstract. They are extremely similar though.

Wait, I got a question. How the hell is this a challenge to atheists?

Yes it is just a concept. It is just a way to say without end without saying that. It's not a phyisical measurement.

I think he means a challenge for atheists to tackle. (As opposed to a challenge for religious people to refute).

Infinity, being a mathematical concept, is intangible by nature. How can you touch the number two? If you can't, does that mean that it doesn't exist in the "tangible world"? Does color not exist in the tangible world? Perhaps it's better to use a different phrase, or to relax our meaning of the word 'tangible'.

That said, I give you infinity:
Infinity is the number of possible different lengths less than one centimetre long.
Infinity is the number of points on the surface of a sphere.
Infinity is the number of tutorials that LegacyWeapon would like SEN to have.

How can infinity itself just be a concept? Somethings are truely infinite.

Think mathmatics for an example.

Theres always a larger number,
You can follow a circle around a loop an infinite amount of times.


I suppose you might argue that you never know if something is infinite unless you have actually reached it. Anotherwords to prove something infinite you would have to go the whole way and not find an end. But of course you can't do that cause there is no end to not find.

Oh well i'm guess i'm not really presenting any new information

Where did you hear this? Especially the part on circular reasoning.

Now to prove infinity "exists", we'll have to know the definition of it.


http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=infinite

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=infinity

I think those two are enough to explain why it's possible. All we have to find out is what has no boundaries or limits? Well, numbers can be counted in an endlessly, thus, it has no boundaries. A similar thing would be time, because time is continues.

Since I'm pretty sure our world is tangible, and infinity, by definition, exists, I win.

Pretty sure isn't good enough .

First prove that numbers are infinite and tangible. I already said that numbers, colors, and sight are "supposedly" infinite. But you havn't proved that they're 100% infinite. Just because humans theorize what can be infinite, doesn't mean it actually is. What makes you think that there is not an end to how many numbers and digits we can think up or write. Especially since Humans use a max of 10% of their brain(most only 2.5 or less ). The brain has limits, and of course we can't keep writing letters infinitely, eventually we would stop. But of course this is just a theory as well, we don't know if infinity exists or not, and we don't know for a fact if anything that is infinite is tangible or not.



Can you prove it? Of course i didn't prove anything either except, you didn't support your claims to finding the "answer" .

Now that People Understand Tangible, and Infinite does anyone have the balls to
say how this has to do with Religons and Atheist's?

Ah, I know exactly what you mean. We humans cannot actually count toward infinity, because that is impossible; however, we can use a loop to show that infinity in math exists. For example:



This simple code will continue forever until something stops it. However, our brain can summarize what it does without actually it actually doing anything. We can easily see that this code will keep adding 1 to x until it is smaller than 0. Simple math shows this is impossible so it will continue adding forever. This is infinity.

Infinity is essentially endless, impossible to reach by any method of adding or multipying. An interesting thing: If you go to hell forever, yet you actually arrive there someday, you can always measure the amount of time that has passed. So, you can't be damned for eternity. Anything with a beginning is not infinite.

First of all Eternity is not infinity, they're different. An eternity has an end, it's just an extremely close amount of time to infinite, so humans confuse this term with infinity. Get those Facts straight.

And you are correct, anything with an infinite, cannot begin nor have factors, specifications, or an end. So therefor your math problem can not be an "answer" to this question. because your example above(Cheeze) starts with a digit or letter. Since it starts, it is not infinite, meaning it never began .

P.S. Will anyone ever post on how this relates to Religons?

So you could compare infinity to a line and eternity to a ray in geometry.

I also posted some links in some other topic a while ago
http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/INFINITY.html

http://scidiv.bcc.ctc.edu/Math/InfiniteHotel.html

http://www.geocities.com/thesciencefiles/infinity/page.html

This one is about the universe and infinity
http://cas.sdss.org/dr3/en/astro/universe/universe.asp

Incorrect. The definition of eternity states:

The definition says without beginning or end, then infinite time; however, this does not mean infinity is without beginning.

In order for something to reach infinity, it must have a starting point, otherwise, it would not be reaching infinity, because it's already at infinity. Thus, it would be an eternity.


Because it doesn't?

You can't reach infinity, because infinity is just "there". Things don't extend TO infinity. Infinity isn't a destination or an end.

Also where did you get that definition from? I'm sure its not 100% correct or defined as it is scientifically supposed to be used as. It's probably a definition that most people will use it as.

You're taking this into mathematics too much. Which is ironic because in mathematics, things (try to) reach infinity. In fact, it's the only way to solve certain problems in calculus.

Refer to my code, the value of x, while the programming is running, is infinity because it has no limit.

All of my definitions come from www.dictionary.com

(Notices how calm and non-sarcastic cheeze is) Who are you and what have you done with Cheeze?!?!??!?!?!?!?!



The reason it has to do with atheists is because they CLAIM that a specific something is infinite. I guess I should use the words "concrete" and "abstract" instead of "tangible" and "intangible", but they NEARLY mean the same thing.

Tangible means "can be felt or touched". Concrete means "Can be observed directly by any of our five senses". So color can be seen, making it concrete, but not touched, making it intangible. Wind can be felt; therefore, it is tangible and concrete.

The concept of numbers cannot be observed by our senses, making it abstract and intangible. Language cannot be observed by our senses, also making it abstract and intangible. Some may say "What about written language?". Words by themselves are meaningless and intangible (See thread "What is knowledge"?). They back up tangible objects.
Now, all of those you have written are intangible: Length is intangible, points are intangible (they have a radii of 0!!!), and Legacy's thoughts are intangible.

Here, I'll even throw in more ideas of what is tangible and intangible.
Tangible:
Books, paper, pencils, Nozomu's head, tutorials, Speakers, Einstein, Game Boy Advances, socks, scooby doo dolls, Kirby(what, I do exist!)
Intangible:
Math(abstract), letters on a page(concrete), colors(concrete), emotions&thoughts(abstract), effects from causes(concrete), causes themselves(abstract), theories(concrete), points,lines, and planes(abstract)

Note: points, lines, and planes are abstract because in the real world these three have 0 length for one of the main three dimensions, making them non-existent. Example: A paper may look like a plane, but it has all three dimensions
DrunkenWrestler has said this stuff about abiogenesis twice and Nozomu did once. The "circular reasoning" is that I wouldn't understand why Drunken would claim abiogenesis doesn't matter but then claim the earth always existed. (And no, Occam's Razor does not work here because this is the reason this thread exists.)
haha, nice try. I never said anything about that infinity NOT existing, BUT...Can you PROVE that it exists in TANGIBLE FORM??I.e.: Anything tangible, or time (time is abstract, yes i know, but I can prove that time isn't infinite anyways) There's a reason I made this; it's because Infinity DOESN'T exist in tangible form! (nor time, for that matter) Why else do you think I wagered infinite dollars!!!!

*Shift's into a sarcastic tone*



If possible paraphrase what they said or find a quote. I'm not really sure if I'm understanding what you said correctly.

I cannot find a relationship between abiogenesis and the existance of earth. They're very different things.



Yeah, well too bad your first question said...

Seeing as how you agree that it exists, and this world is tangible, I win.

Uh-oh... communication breakdown.. gosh darn synonyms. If I said tangible REALM, would you understand what I mean? I don't mean world is an THE world(earth), I mean world as it is commonly used in Mario games: World 1-1, World 3-2. They are areas, not necessarily the world, but instead "world" is used to define the different areas. That is what I am doing here. There's the tangible world/realm, and the intangible world/realm.

That was a good thing to say Cheeze, as it clears up things.

Look at the very first post of this thread, and you shall find what you have been seeking. (types like a sage because of boredom)

Really Cheeze?? Well that's odd. Verry odd indeed. I was speaking to drunken about the creation of the earth, and he said that "Abiogenesis has nothing to do with evolution."

That's very odd; is this proof that the ever thick-headed Drunken was wrong?!?!?

What? Umm.. Your points don't connect.

Abiogenesis - Creation of Living Organisms from Non-Living Matter.

Existance of Earth - (I'm assuming..) How Earth was Created.

Evolution - The Explanation of Organism Diversity.

How are these related?

Your question is a trick question!!

I know it's a trick question . That's why its so annoying when atheists say there is infinite time. True, time is intangible, BUT if time were infinite, then it would take an infinite amount of years to get to the creation of man, BECAUSE tangible objects can never reach infinity!

My points?? That's DrunkenWrestler's!!! Now when I hear it, I have no clue what they mean either . I'll go get Drunken's exact quote and see if you can decipher it.

Edit: Found one of them.

Look for a thread made by Millenium called "Reasons why i think God exists, Couple sites which explain it" Look at posts 23(me) and 25(Drunken).

Note: If you notice "Again, abiogenesis is not a part of evolution theory.", that's because he told me this once earlier. But, I am unable to find the first post where he stated that to me the first time. (It's in a different thread, because his first post in that thread was the "again, abiogenesis...)

You're correct that time may not have had a "beginning". However, this does not neglect the fact that some time ago, an event happened. This event created earth and thus, through time, created what we see today.

What you're trying to do is measure the distance between 1 point and another point that doesn't exist. (Point 1, now, Point 2, Beginning of Time)

What I just did was measure the distance between 2 points that are within the same plane. (Point 1, now, Point 2, When Earth was created)

limit of (z --> infinity) 1 - x^z = 1
where 0 < x < 1.

X is the probability of an event happening and Z is time.
This means, any event that could happen, will happen with an infinite amount of time, but not necessarily at the beginning.


It's funny, this isn't even an arguement. In fact, this is just stating the obvious. (Oh Noez, this isn't my sarcastic tone! )

-We know time is intangible
-We know tangible objects can never reach infinity

Everything in between has nothing to do with what we're talking about. Whether or not you're right or wrong is irrelevant because my theory works both ways.

Wow cheeze, this is easier than I thought!!! Thank you for admitting that the earth is not infinite years old!!! *Gasp... Cheeze just agreed with me... THE WORLD IS COMING TO AN END AHHHHHH

Oops, you made a slight error there cheeze (and i missed it too). Not neccessarily the creation of the "earth", but the creation of the whole universe was at a finite point!!! And the reason is just what you stated earlier!

Yes, because if the universe were infinitely old, it would take an infinite amount of time for the earth to come into existance! Therefore, the universe had a beginning too!

That's what I meant by "finite time", because I assumed that time was created when the "big bang" of the universe occured.


Exactly!!! If time were infinite (and the universe always existed), it would take forever to the point of creation of man!

Now, in misusing my words, I have made an error. We truly do not know if Time is infinite or not (always existed), but I assumed that Time was a natural force; therefore, it would have been created at the same time the universe was.

And that means in the time that the universe existed theres still the chance that evolution didn't happen.

Wow... I wished other atheists would point out the obvious like our star pupil cheeze did. It makes life so much easier. <(ˆ.ˆ)>

I'm not sure who just won. =/


Of course there is the chance that it didn't, but evidence suggests it did happen. But we're not going to argue about that are we?

Cheeze, Cheeze. Tsk, tsk, tsk. Allow me to aliviate a few things.

1)You said Eternity is equal to infinity. But of course, The Cathlic Church and other religons say that "bad" people will go to hell for AN eternity, not all. So if eternity has an end, it can not be infinite. Not to mention eternity is intangible which contradicts the point of your whole post(which was to contradict mine).

2)You don't need a starting point to reach infinity because it's never ending. Stop relying on a dictionary and use your 10% of brain(err less). If you so called(mathematical code) never ends, can you notice that means it never began. You're basically doing a SC trigger. You're setting a deathcount of 1, then resetting it to zero. It would seem infinite, but actually there is an outside factor(the game and players). They can quit the game, freeze their comp, and a few other things. Which means not only is it never ending, but for it to begin it requires something else to happen. Hope that clarifys that(use your head).Note: If infinity is forever how can you reach it?

3)Come, come i dont wanna give away the answer! I posted it as a P.S. because it as close as you can most likely get to the answer. Think about it =)

P.S. Kirby it's not a trick question, it's more of an opiniated question .