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In the first on my mini-series, "Infinity, Oh infinity", I challenged readers to do the impossible: prove that infinity exists in the tangible realm. After little argument, it was taken as obvious that infinity indeed only existed in the intangible realm.

But, by taking this obviously, one question arose. "What Created the Universe?" In this next segment, I wish for you to bring up possible ideas of what caused the universe into being.


"It always existed you say?" Please click on the underlined url above, and read the thread fully to understand the predictiment.
Or, if you are short on time, please look at posts #33 and #36 on the thread.

I don't think you want post #35...
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I would like to point out that there are more people in the world than just Creationists and Atheists, as post #35 seemed to imply.
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Currently, the most widely accepted scientific theory on the creation of the universe is the theory of the "Big Bang". The theory states that the universe started as a singularity - a single point with no space or time, essentially a massive kind of black hole - that "exploded" in a great fireball of energy, which created all the matter that we know of today.

The theory doesn't explain why this happened - it just did. But there is evidence for the theory, such as observations of the expansion of the universe, and the discovery of the cosmic background radiation predicted by the theory.

The universe was never created.

It just always existed.

And we, small men, don't want to understand this and keep saying "everything has a start, even if we can't know where it is, what caused it and how it happened".

Oops, I meant post #36. I want post #36 because it expresses important points. And yes, it is true that there is more than those two groups, but those are the two groups that bicker over serious discussion if you have noticed.
Yes, I know that full well. I never said the Big Bang is wrong. You have three problems with your "Given" statement. (started out with a single point with a massive black hole)

1) In mathematical terms, a "point" does not exist, because it has no length, width, or depth. If you don't mean the word "point" literally, then ignore this argument.

2) Where did the massive black hole come from? And if you clicked on "Infinity, Oh infinity" and read the thread, you would have seen the problem. If you did see the problem, please tell me where I goofed up on my logic.

3) Did it ever occur to you that a supernatural being may have done the "Big Bang"? I mean, the Big Bang is proven to be true, but as you can see, the given statement that there was some "matter" or "anti-matter" before the Big Bang cannot work.

You never even read the thread did you.


*sigh.
Ok look, before the universe existed there was nothing. Not nothing as in nothing is "something", but nothing as in "what rocks dream about" [Aristotle]. Rocks dream about no thing.

Now when nothing existed, there were no natural laws, because there was no nature! Even if there were natural laws, what could they implement their laws on? And also, don't forget the First Law of Thermodynamics. "Matter cannot be created nor destroyed." Now if this is a natural law, then how can nature produce something out of nothing? Is there any proof of ANYTHING causing something out of nothing?

Therefore, something supernatural (outside of natural laws) must have happened. Now, since by definition of "supernatural", natural laws cannot make a supernatural event happen. Therefore, some supernatural being must have done this supernatural event. And viola, we have a proposition.

There are people out there, who have thought about this subject day and night for many years, and have been working to try to find an answer to this problem, and to this day, they still havn't found it.

So the answer you seek won't be found, unless you're just here to have fun thinking about it. KINDA like me arguing with religious people.

if a universe is infinite (which is shouldnt be but... as far as we know...) and infinite is kinda big.... it would be pretty hard to tell mathmatically how the universe was made...

Science would also be very hard. (science is the study of studying stuff).

Religeon would be easiest. If i believe you, you say that the universe was made from hamsters..... lol but ya if they were and i really believed you... i think it is easier for me to think this then kill my brain and think infinite...

universe=filled with space
Space=fills infinatley

Let me just point out. No multiple universe bullshit.

Multiple Dimensions, MAYBE

Multiple Universes, NO

Actually, they have. It's called the Kalam Cosmological Argument.

1. An infinite number of days has no end.
2. But today is the end day of history (history being a collection of all days)
3. Therefore, there were not an infinite number of days before today.

<------------\\----------|-------|-----------|-------------o
Distant History\\Previous Days--Yesterday-----Today


To understand it in a less intellectual format, refer to the link "Infinity, Oh infinity" on the first post. Read the whole thread thoroughly before bringing a response.

I thought we established that time and the number of days have absolutly no relationship.

Time is forever, we will never know how far back it has gone. We can figure out when the universe is created, however, time existed before then.

Unless blah, I posted the wrong thing which means I misunderstood something!

No don't worry cheeze. The book's perspective upon time is that it is a natural force, meaning it was created at the same time the universe was created.

But even if Time existed forever... it would take an infinite amount of time to reach the creation of the universe, which sorta screws over the theory that Time existed forever. Since, (and you should know this) infinity over any x, where x is a number, does not exist, since infinity is not an actual number.

If I made an error please tell me, but I will go on.

o This is some non-existant point in time before the universe was created alright?

• Now, the point exists because the universe has been created (thus creating time)

Past•->--->--->----->-----•Present

Wow.. another Duh statement! That makes 4?

I'd like to not be rude or illmannered but..... Could you please prove your theory?
If you're willing to say bullshit over something, prove it to be bullshit(which you can't because bullshit is a type of terd, and your theory isn't well...terd.... .)

So far everyone(but chris) has made a point to whatever it is they have posted in either thread. So tell me why Multiple universes is impossible?

Of course it's possible but please don't bring in Drunken's rampage of Burden of Proof. That just gets annoying.

I am ashamed at you Kirby Well...if you want a religious standpoint, here it is. It is quite simple really. In the Bible God says anything we need to know is answered in the Bible. If we don't need to know it(figure it out) we DON'T KNOW IT!!! He obviously didn';t mention the creation of the universe so it has no relevance. It isn't important. Drop it

Indecisive, I think this might be why people pick on you.

"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." Genesis 1:1

We just tack on logic to know that God created the universe as well. And also, we disprove the theory that the universe ALWAYS existed, making that something created the universe more plausible.

....

Should we always make inferences to the Bible with no proof?

Err...

The universe is so vast and full of mysteries, just like the human brain.

The human brain, like the universe, is so precocious and cryptic, so hard to understand...

But who holds the answers to such enigmas? The "maker" does. Just like on a math test; the teacher who makes up almost seemingly impossible to answer math questions would hold the answers to such difficult math questions.

What's my point u ask? It's that us human beings might or might not hold answers to these mysteries, but only the supreme being who created them would...

Although that is a nice speech millenium, please do not stray from the topic. I am asking for possible things that could have created the universe given the predictiment.

It's my job to stray from the topic to keep others in line (thats the plus side of starting the thread )

I was going to say you're really ignorant, but then I realized that would be flaming so blah.

Seriously, the answers are not always from the bible. Tell me, did the bible tell you about calculus? Anything on math? Anything on history of America? Anything about Antarctica? Anything about the deepest places of the world? Anything about the core of the sun? Anything about science?

All of these issues are relevant to our current world.


The Burden of Proof is a necessary part of arguements. To present a statement, one must also back it up. Otherwise, I could just as easily say that my computer always existed. If the Burden of Proof was not used, then I could simply say you cannot prove my accusation of being wrong; therefore, it is right.


I think we're getting into things that are simply unexplainable. You cannot create time, you can measure time, but not create. It is intangible. Time will continue forever, whether or not existance is real because it does not require anything to survive. So if time is to continue into infinity, then it must have also been here before us for an infinte amount of time.

But this is just an idea. Maybe time isn't real. In math, one could easily see there are an infinte amount of numbers between 1 and 2. Similiarly, there are infinite amount of time between 1 and 2 seconds.

LIke I said, this is beyond what we undersatnd, doesn't really connect to the question fully anyway.


But you can take the limit of infinity, which will allow us to actually use them in equations. infinity / x is the samething as infinity, but x / infinity, where x is not infinity, is zero.

In conclusion, I don't have one. This stuff is too weird and blahed.


Much like how clouds and the earth have answers to how lightning is formed, or why when lava cools, it forms a strong rock? Hmm, if that's true, I should definitely go and read more rocks.

Ah, thing big bang theroy. I love it.
It's not that I know a damn thing about it, but I think this thought is really interesting...

The big bang theroy could have happened multiple times. Meaning SEN could have been created multiple times, these same discussions made multiple times. Which throws into relief the concept of fate and destiny.
Just think about that.

No Cheeze, the Bible doesn't say those things. Does it matter? Perhaps to you, who lives day to day wondering why things work, me? I could give a rat's behind. Why does the sun attarct the earth? Do I care? No. Will I die without knowing? No. Will you suffer for not obeying the Lord. I won't answer. Instead I will allow you with your knowledge of the sun.

Ya ya I think he got the message cheeze .



Yes I know, but I don't need people saying "you can't prove me wrong, so ha!". Thats what i meant. I don't need aggressive drunken spoiling my plan because someone doesn't know what "burden of proof" is.
Don't scientists consider time to be the 4th dimension?

Oh, and "X will continue forever, whether or not it exists because it does not require anything to survive." is flawed because if it doesn't exist, it doesn't need anything! It's nothing for crying out loud. (>.<)

Yep. Hey quit it; I'M the only one who can do obvious statements!

One over infinity isn't 0! It's approximately 0. It's 0.0->>1 Anyways, we do agree that the universe was created, not always existed, right?


Eh? I didn't understand it. Aristotle's defintion of nothing is "What rocks dream about." Of course, maybe rocks are living beings and can dream something, but you get the picture right?

ADDITION:

WHERE DID THE FIRST MATERIAL COME FROM DARNIT?!?!?

Calculus - Required in many fields.
Not in the Bible: Was invented much later.
Usefulness? Very.

History of America - Important if you're going anywhere to a historian or a teacher.
Not in the Bible: Happened way after the Bible.
Usefulness? Not very, but teaches very valuable lessons not learned anywhere else.

Antarctica - Scientific research, possible future water supply.
Not in the Bible: No human was able to go that far south.
Usefulness? Not very, but used to prove a point.

Ocean Floor - Biology or anything in the Aqua Field (Whatever it's called)
Not in the Bible: No human was able to go that far deep to find the true treasures.
Usefulness? Not very, but used to prove a point.

Sun's Core - Astronomy, possibly used to learn about fusion reactions.
Not in the Bible: Chemistry was introduced much later, as was the ideas of astronomy.
Usefulness: Very important if we still want to mantain electricity.

Oh wait, what's this? You said you didn't care? Ah, you're going to live a crappy life. I don't see what difference it would make if you were to die now than later. Honestly, with your beliefs as ignorant as those, all you're doing is wasting our already precious and little resources.


EDITED:


No, one over infinity is 0. You can ask any math teacher. But like I said, you must take the limit of it!

I can believe both, it doesn't matter to me because it doesn't contradict my ideas.


I was replying to Army? He say's the creator always has the answer. You know what creates lightning? Clouds and Earth. How does that happen? Let's ask some clouds!

Oh wait, scientists have already confirmed nad proved it's due to charges from the cloud and earth. Oh well, I guess cloud's will just have to explain rain to us then! Oh wait, scientists have already told us that too. Maybe lava will tell me how continents are formed... oh wait, scientists have done that too.

Tell me how calculus is important? I don't remember using it...I still live do I not? Well now...Oh but wait. Historty of America. Oh my goodness yeah you are right. Uhh....I don't think so buddy. Antarctica...now there is an argument. Without antarctican knowledge how can....oh wait we can still live. Well then...Sun's core...last I remembered the Bible said tehre was a sun. I could be wrong... Uh huh...well now. You brought up VERY good points. I am surprised. Without math gosh where would I be right now? Oh that's right, living my happy life in solidarity.

Pardon my digression, but i'm just saying that we really dont know and we can't really prove it with materialistic things.

EDIT: But my answer: God

Ah, not suprised. Tell me, how would you survive if your parents are gone? Tell me, what would you do if the only way for you to get a job was to learn Calculus, and you failed? What would you do if you were an American and not know American History; I should add to this, a foreign student asks you about it? (Or perhaps he even knows more than you because you know nothing) What if you were chosen to help develop fusion? Oh wait, that seems unlikey because you can't even do Calculus.

Oh, you say other people will do it? Huh, I thought you wanted people to be like you? Ignorant and 100% blinded by the bible? I don't think so.