Staredit Network

Staredit Network -> Serious Discussion -> Is there such thing as "Negative speed"?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by O)FaRTy1billion on 2005-05-05 at 00:18:00
I was once thinking about this, what would happen if you were to somehow manage to go a "negative speed"? It wouldn't be going backwards, because you are just going a positive speed, just in a different direction. Would you go back in time, or would it somehow mess everything up? Or would it harm you because your mind could not manage it?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Nozomu on 2005-05-05 at 01:14:03
First of all, the term "speed" is subjective. The terms we should be discussing are velocity and momentum. Velocity is the amount of force and object moving through space will exert after figuring in all extraneous factors (i.e. friction from air, force in the opposite direction, etc.). It is not possible for something to have negative velocity, because velocity is an "absolute value" (remember that from algebra class?). Velocity can arrive at 0 but can never go below, instead going back up. All that this means is that the force being exerted is stronger in another direction, and that the object has changed its course.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Rantent on 2005-05-05 at 01:58:25
Nozomu is almost entirely right.
Velocity is a vector quantity, meaning that it gives a rate of Distance/Time and a direction. However this cannot have a negative value, speed is a scaler quantity, which means that it states no direction. There can be negative speed, it is simply the opposite direction that the object would be going.
This is used mainly in finding the forces of a magnetic field on passing charges. If the charge of the particle is negative it would have the force in a direction opposite that of a positive charge. Therefor the speed would be negative, but the velocity would still be positive.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Desperado on 2005-05-05 at 17:52:29
To have negative velocity you have to be made of anti-matter.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by O)FaRTy1billion on 2005-05-05 at 18:37:24
Don't make fun of my stupidity. tongue.gif
Report, edit, etc...Posted by chuiu on 2005-05-05 at 18:40:43
Speed is just a measurement of time and location. Velocity is direction and speed.

So to answer your question, no. There is no such thing as negative speed.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by O)FaRTy1billion on 2005-05-05 at 18:44:08
Thats why I put what I did.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by EzDay281 on 2005-05-05 at 18:54:32
What would being 3dimensional but moving in 4 dimensions be?
Imaginary speed?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Rantent on 2005-05-05 at 19:19:33
How can a three dimentional object exsist in a four dimentional area. (Paper has a thickness, it's just not much)
QUOTE(Desperado)
To have negative velocity you have to be made of anti-matter.
The only difference between anti-matter and regular matter is that they are made of opposing particles. If you bring the two particles together, they cancel each other out and turn into nothingness. (This is a lot like what happens to corrisponding sound waves) Antimatter has no other properties that "regular" matter has. It does not repel things.
And how many times must I say that you cannot travel at a negative velocity.

I'm a physics nerd. king.gif
Report, edit, etc...Posted by O)FaRTy1billion on 2005-05-05 at 19:56:32
If 2 dementional objects are ^2, and 3 dementional objects are ^3, would 4 dementional objects be ^4? (I kno this has nothing to do with speeds)
Report, edit, etc...Posted by warhammer40000 on 2005-05-05 at 20:21:28
yea, what u said was inpossible blah blah. But what u meant, its still to crazy, that doesnt make sense. To be moving back in like...time, but not? no.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by unnownrelic on 2005-05-06 at 00:03:54
Ya they are all right that you can't travel negatively. That's like saying nothing going in on itself. Or a black hole I guess but technically the only way you could even begin to even think about traveling at a negative speed you would have to rip open time and space and destroy like everything around you. That's like having a single particle spin in two directions at once (quantum theory, this is needed to make a quantum computer). So like everyone else said, you can't have a negative velocity. Period. End of story.



And if anyone looks like this after reading this blink.gif confused.gif whole thread than I have no sympathy for you.


Edit: Oh yeah, if you could move in 4 dimensions you could travel through time since the fourth dimension is time.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by EzDay281 on 2005-05-06 at 02:11:52
QUOTE
How can a three dimentional object exsist in a four dimentional area. (Paper has a thickness, it's just not much)

As far as is known, it can't. But it's a hypothetical situation anyways.

QUOTE
Edit: Oh yeah, if you could move in 4 dimensions you could travel through time since the fourth dimension is time.

Ah. And you know this how?
I hate when people tell me that the "4th dimension is time."
There is no way of knowing that for sure.
Time, as we think of it, either is a straight line, or branches out into tons of timelines. Either way, we percieve time as 2 dimensional. Which wouldn't make sense since it's the FOURTH dimension.
Each new dimension, from 0 to 3, just adds another infinity of the lower dimension lined up with itself. Why would time break the trend all of a sudden?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by O)FaRTy1billion on 2005-05-06 at 17:24:08
0 and 1?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by unnownrelic on 2005-05-06 at 23:15:14
0 and 1? What's that supposed to mean, the first dimension and non-existence?

And okay, the fourth dimension may or may not be time, but assuming that it is, then we could travel all throughout time, not just back and forth. But assuming that it isn't time then does anyone have any ideas about what it could be? I mean the fourth dimension might just be the whole negative speed thing. But like I said negative velocity is like taking nothing and collapsing it, you just can't do it as you already have nothing and you can't get much less than that.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by O)FaRTy1billion on 2005-05-06 at 23:19:04
he said 0-3 dementions.
0 and 1?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by unnownrelic on 2005-05-06 at 23:27:40
OOOoooooooooooooh okay I understand what you meant. The first dimension is just like a single line in space. All it has is length, no width, and no depth. So technically you couldn't see something 1 dimensional at all. And 0 dimesional means it's non-existent. That's because it has no length, width, or depth, so it has no substance. And technically there is no such thing as a 0, 1, or 2 dimensional object becuase have no substance. I guess though you could technically say that a 2 dimesional object can exist but again, it would be more of and imaginary are in space. That's because 2 dimensional means it only has length and width. But it still has no depth so there is really no way something like that could exist.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by EzDay281 on 2005-05-07 at 14:25:33
QUOTE
And okay, the fourth dimension may or may not be time, but assuming that it is, then we could travel all throughout time, not just back and forth. But assuming that it isn't time then does anyone have any ideas about what it could be? I mean the fourth dimension might just be the whole negative speed thing. But like I said negative velocity is like taking nothing and collapsing it, you just can't do it as you already have nothing and you can't get much less than that.


Umm.. perhaps another axis of physical reality?
Just because we can't percieve it doesn't mean it's impossible.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by O)FaRTy1billion on 2005-05-07 at 14:42:13
I think I have figured dementions out (i think):
    Dementions:
  • 0. Nothing
  • 1. A line (Width; x¹)
  • 2. A square (Width & Hight; x²)
  • 3. A cube (Width, hight, & depth, x³)
  • 4. Unknown; unable to be known tongue.gif (width, hight, depth, & something else (length?); x[sup]4[/sup])
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Wilhelm on 2005-05-08 at 06:13:08
Ever consider that maybe THERE IS NO 4TH DIMENSION?!
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Screwed on 2005-05-08 at 06:26:46
Quite interesting, I liked the way he seperated 6 dimensions into 3 physical dimension (the 3 we all comprehend), and 3 time-based dimensions. Does make some sense to me. I admire the coded part.

Now waits for Thereotical Human to point out the imperfections... hehe whistling1.gif

QUOTE(http://www.rahul.net/raithel/otfw/dimensions.html)
The following is based on Ouspensky's idea of the six dimensions. Some say there are three or four dimensions, some say more dimensions (10, 11, and 26 are current favorites of some physicists), some say there are an infinite number of dimensions. But Ouspensky's explanation of the six dimensions resolves that dilemma by showing how six dimensions are both all-inclusive and yet only partial.

This entire area is at best only theoretical for me, but I find it gives me a valuable point of view in dealing with ideas of dimension, space and time. Ouspensky first developed his thoughts on the six dimensions prior to meeting the fourth way, but was later struck by certain correlations between the teaching of cosmoses in the fourth way and his thoughts on dimensions. He continued to develop and refine his theory of dimensions, but I know of no final conclusion, or even late summation of it by him. What follows is my understanding of Ouspensky's ideas on this topic.

CODE
We do not perceive our universe as it is—in six dimensions. With thought, to some extent, we can do that, and that is what this paper is about. In theory, we can develop consciousness to the extent that we are able to perceive the additional dimensions.
Common Knowledge
In geometry, we learn that a point has no dimension, but a line is one-dimensional, it has length. A plane is two dimensional - length and breadth as, for example, a triangle or circle. A solid is three-dimensional - length, breadth, and height, as for example, a tetrahedron or a sphere. It is often said that time is the fourth dimension and, while this seems true, we can no longer use a static geometric image to represent it. Take a three-dimensional object and move it, and you have an image of the fourth dimension. Throw a Frisbee.


Dimensions of Time
Here, I introduce a convenient "shorthand" for the discussion so far and that to come. In this phraseology, there are three dimensions of space, and three dimensions of time. What we have just done with the introduction of the fourth dimension is enter the first dimension of time. If the Frisbee is seen as a point (say from a great distance), the "Frisbee moving through the air" describes a line, the first dimension of time, or the fourth dimensions of space/time.

The fifth dimension, in Ouspensky's writings as I understand them, is the fourth dimension in infinite repetition. Here we can visualize it as the fifth dimension of space/time, in which the Frisbee solid (third dimension), moving along in time (fourth dimension), is repeated, or mirrored, in flights of infinite parallel Frisbees - infinite just as each of the previous successions in dimensionality are an infinite number of the previous dimension. But where do the infinite number of Frisbees come from?

If we look at the fourth dimension of space-time as the first dimension of time - the Frisbee as a point extended to describe a line - we now extend that line at right angles to itself to form a plane, the second dimension of time.

It seems to me that seeing the fourth dimension in this way leads easily to an idea of the fifth dimension, and one that is in line with quantum physics. If we see this tossed Frisbee as describing the fourth dimension, all other possible trajectories for the Frisbee represent the fifth dimension. This fifth dimension would then correspond to quantum physics' "superposition" in which, prior to measurement, a quantum system can be in any possible state or, rather, in all possible states simultaneously.

Finally, the sixth dimension of space-time, or the third dimension of time. The sixth dimension includes all possible expansions of the fifth dimension in space-time. Using the terminology of the three dimensions of time, the plane (second dimension), moved at right angles to itself creates a three-dimensional figure, but a figure in three dimensional time. It is actually a six-dimensional figure in space-time.

We can see the sixth dimension as the solid of the Frisbee, so to speak, that is as the point (the Frisbee) extended in time to become a line, repeated infinitely to become a plane which in turn is repeated infinitely to become a solid. This represents what Ouspensky called "all possibilities", in this case, for the Frisbee. But it is not all possibilities for an apple. An apple forms its own point, and line, and so on.

Now that summarizes the idea of the all-inclusive nature of six dimensions for any existence. But I said that this is also a partial dimensionality. This comes about because these six dimensions are relative to the point of view of the observer.

Back to our Frisbee, flying through space. An atom on this Frisbee could have no way of envisioning the Frisbee itself in space and time. It could, however, see itself in space and time. It could see that its continuation in time forms a line, and the infinite repetition of that line a plane, and the repetition of that plane a solid. That solid, all possibilities for the atom, is a piece, a point, of Frisbee.

The Six Dimensions in Modern Physics
In modern physics and science in general, the first three dimensions are the same as those described everywhere. But then things get a little confused. The fourth dimension, which is time, is sometimes described as space-time, which is actually the fifth dimension - as Ouspensky points out, the fact that space-time is considered to be curved requires another dimension.

The sixth dimension, all possibilities, is essentially the "many worlds" or "multiverse" interpretation of modern physics. The many worlds explanation is an attempt to explain a curious property of quantum phenomena that has been observed. It basically goes like this: At every moment when you seem to choose among multiple possibilities, you actually choose each possibility, and different universes fork off, the one you are in now is the one in which you made the choice to read this, for example. There is another universe where you chose not to read this, another where you read part way and stopped and so on.

As the theoretical physicist David Deutsch writes as he is explaining the theory of parallel universes containing their own David Deutsch's:

    "Many of those Davids are at this moment writing these very words. Some are putting it better. Others have gone for a cup of tea."
    David Deutch, The Fabric of Reality

This is exactly Ouspensky's "all possibilities":

    "Every moment of time contains a certain number of possibilities, at times a small number, at others a great number, but never an infinite number. It is necessary to realize that there are possibilities and impossibilities. I can take from this table and throw on the floor a piece of paper, a pencil, or an ash-tray, but I cannot take from the table and throw on the floor an orange which is not on the table. This clearly defines the difference between possibility and impossibility. There are several combinations of possibilities in relation to things which can be thrown on the floor from this table. I can throw a pencil, or a piece of paper, or an ashtray, or else a pencil and a piece of paper, or a pencil and an ashtray, or a piece of paper and an ash-tray, or all three together, or nothing at all. There are only these possibilities. If we take as a moment of time the moment when these possibilities exist, then the next moment will be a moment of the actualization of one of these possibilities. A pencil is thrown on the floor. This is the actualization of one of the possibilities. Then a new moment comes. This moment also has a certain number of possibilities in a certain definite sense. And the moment after it will again be a moment of the actualization of one of these possibilities [...] But all the possibilities that have been created or have originated in the world must be actualized [...] The sixth dimension is the line of the actualization of all possibilities."
    P. D. Ouspensky, In Search of the Miraculous

What Deutsch is referring to as "parallel universes" is what Ouspensky referred to as the sixth dimension, or "the solid of time".

Deutsch says:

    "The quantum theory of parallel universes is not the problem, it is the solution. It is not some troublesome, optional interpretation emerging from arcane theoretical considerations. It is the explanation - the only one that is tenable - of a remarkable and counter-intuitive reality."

The shell of a periwinkle as a visual representation of six-dimensionality

This section presents an analogy of six or seven dimensions - seven dimensions if the point or 0th dimension is counted as a dimension.

An analogy of dimensionality which originates in a point of existence and extends through space-time to include all possibilities for that existence:

The point at the apex of the shell represents the coming into existence. This is a point, a representative of no dimensions. The extension of this point is the first growth of the shell; it describes a series of points, i.e., a line, one dimension, extension in space. The line is next seen to curve, indicating the attribute of a next dimension which describes a plane - two dimensions, width and breadth. The curve is seen to spiral into the next dimension, indicating the three dimensions of width, breadth, and height. That this occurs over time indicates the fourth dimension, time itself. The motion over time now repeats to create the multiple spirals of the circle - repetition, the fifth dimension. The continual growth of the expanding spiral describes the ultimate shape of all possibilities for the periwinkle, analogous to the sixth dimension.
whistling1.gif whistling1.gif
Report, edit, etc...Posted by unnownrelic on 2005-05-08 at 21:47:10
Wow, I think that's the longest reply I've ever seen. And I guess that it makes sense that the fourth dimesion is movement.

Edit: It also makes sense with the other things. Like it's sitting there in a line. Then it is spread out along a horizontal (or vertical it doesn't matter) plane and then taking the existing one and spreading all over the other plane (the one you didn't use). So that means that the third dimension is the equivelant of the 0 dimension of normal space. Also, it doesn't have to be multiple universes, it could be that it exists in all states at the same time.

And has anyone noticed that we aren't really on the topic of negaticve speed anymore or has that already been solved?

And somebody said something about antimatter. I don't know who but I have an interesting paradox for you. In the laws of physics (I think) it says something about matter cannot be destroyed or created. If that's the case, then what happens to the matter and antimatter particles when they collide? I just thought that was interesting.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by kirby_star on 2005-05-13 at 00:36:37
we all know the first 3 dimensions... and its basic the next three are movement in different directions through time... negative speed would be going backwards... Have you ever thought of what moving side to side or up and down in time would be? we all know forward and back ward... so i think it would be hopping into a differen't universe or dimension or something and that can also be thought of as negative speed...
Report, edit, etc...Posted by O)FaRTy1billion on 2005-05-13 at 00:42:37
QUOTE
CODE
We do not perceive our universe as it is—in six dimensions. With thought, to some extent, we can do that, and that is what this paper is about. In theory, we can develop consciousness to the extent that we are able to perceive the additional dimensions.
Common Knowledge
In geometry, we learn that a point has no dimension, but a line is one-dimensional, it has length. A plane is two dimensional - length and breadth as, for example, a triangle or circle. A solid is three-dimensional - length, breadth, and height, as for example, a tetrahedron or a sphere. It is often said that time is the fourth dimension and, while this seems true, we can no longer use a static geometric image to represent it. Take a three-dimensional object and move it, and you have an image of the fourth dimension. Throw a Frisbee.


That is similar to what I was saying before:
1 demention is a line (^1)
2 is a square (^2 ; squared)
3 is a cube (^3 ; cubed)
4 (in my opinion) is unable for us to see (^4)

P.s.: Whats breadth? bread width?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by kirby_star on 2005-05-13 at 00:44:05
QUOTE(O)FaRTy1billion @ May 12 2005, 09:42 PM)
That is similar to what I was saying before:
1 demention is a line (^1)
2 is a square (^2 ; squared)
3 is a cube (^3 ; cubed)
4 (in my opinion) is unable for us to see (^4)

P.s.: Whats breadth? bread width?
[right][snapback]207210[/snapback][/right]


I think 4 is time...
5 is a different type of movement in time...
6. is another different type of movement in time...
Next Page (1)