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Staredit Network -> Serious Discussion -> theory
Report, edit, etc...Posted by farscope on 2005-05-10 at 02:26:06
I think that life, well has always been here, to be more specific not life, matter.
For matter cannot be created nor destroyed, its basically been proven. so in that case then we did not just start out from somewhere, all the materials where here in space everywhere just there. after an unimaginable amount of time, it finally got it put together right to make life then began a cycle then here we are today.

also think about that concept also in a different way, no how everyone can be creative
creativity is kindof a random asortment of thinking so whatever weird thing that we could think up aliens whatever, it has probably happened or will happen.

for matter will always be here, but the energy of the matter doesnt, energy is basically the work that matter does, or capacity of it. at the end of where energy goes that it gets wasted is HEAT ;energy is converted all the way to the last thing which is heat.

even when matter is converted to heat, it may look as though matter has been destroyed, nope its still there just in a different form, so like i said earlier if matter cannot be created or destroyed, then when all of matter gets converted to heat, then something will happen i gaurentee it. something that we don't know about or something like the big bang will happen and then it will restart again.

the point is its a neverending cycle, where something ends, mabye in our minds it ends but in fact it still exists

actually in fact ending and begining is just are imagination there was no end or begin ing to anything for example:


we say our life began as a baby then it will end as we die.
Well now began and end in that sentence is just saying, note: when we (began) we didnt really begin it was just converted matter into us, when we (ended), nothing ended the energy of the matter just deplieted so it converted and changed form

NOTHING ENDED OR BEGAN THOSE ARE JUST BAD WORDS

words that should not be aplied to the world space in the way it is in like the belief in god, he began everything right, im not gonna get into this discussion, for theere are lots of variables you have to consider in god, to just consider it not to be real

so im not saying god isnt real, i just dont believe in god, in that my brain is leaning more towards fact and my theory

Report, edit, etc...Posted by MapUnprotector on 2005-05-10 at 15:17:08
Actually there CAN be beginnings and ends, it's just the way we use it and what we apply it to. Like say the beginning of a tv show and the end of a tv show. They really do begin and end. There is an "end" to life as we KNOW it, it's when you die and your heart stops and all that. That is the end of a life. The beginning would be when you are born, or when sperm meets egg or whatever else you believe. But sure matter isn't "created or destroyed" but the formation of an "object" can have a defined beginning and end.

Beginning and end can be used to describe a change in form like matter being converted from one object to another.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Loser_Musician on 2005-05-10 at 17:36:27
BTW - The whole matter can not be created nor destroyed thing, can be false. Because we havn't been to the edge of the universe. (If there exists such a place) And if we started from 1 or 2 molecules or w/e you happen to believe, then maybe matter can be created. But only due to unknown reasons. I mean, this COULD be possible. I doubt it, but I can see some scientists saying that it could be possible. If this isn't possible, then that just means everything was already here.

(Got to love science, cause even if u prove it all wrong, it only gets stronger)
Report, edit, etc...Posted by warhammer40000 on 2005-05-10 at 17:39:46
Devilesk said most of it fer me. Then Alpha said some stuff... what im saying is, they already covered it.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Forsaken on 2005-05-10 at 18:02:00
The funny thing is. A scientist pretty much took a great step to proving Primordial Soup "Could" have happened. His name was... damn... I forgot... Give me like 15-20 minutes and I'll have a link for it.

But, what he did was, he "created" a living organism form "NON-Living" substances... It is pretty cool that he actually did that.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by MapUnprotector on 2005-05-10 at 18:11:59
I really doubt that, he probably did something else. If someone did create living things from nonliving matter I'm sure I would have heard about it by now.

I think I read somewhere that scientists created cells that have membrances and proteins and things that do something, but I think they couldn't reproduce.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Forsaken on 2005-05-10 at 18:18:56
QUOTE
Fifty years ago on May 15, 1953, a University of Chicago graduate student, Stanley Miller, published a landmark two-page paper in Science magazine. He considered if amino acids could be made from what was known about the early Earth's atmosphere. Could the building blocks of life be cooked up?

earth_snow-ice
"... some warm little pond, with all sorts of ammonia and phosphoric salts, light, heat, electricity etc...", Charles Darwin, on the origins of life in tidal pools
Credit:Smithsonian

Miller began his paper:

    "The idea that the organic compounds that serve as the basis of life were formed when the earth had an atmosphere of methane, ammonia, water and hydrogen instead of carbon dioxide, nitrogen, oxygen and water was suggested by Oparin and has been given emphasis by Urey and Bernal. In order to test this hypothesis..."


When Miller first presented his experimental findings to a large seminar, it is reported that at one point, Enrico Fermi politely asked if it was known whether this kind of process could have actually taken place on the primitive Earth. Harold Urey, Stanley's research advisor, immediately replied, saying 'If God did not do it this way, then he missed a good bet'. The seminar ended amid the laughter and, as the attendees filed out, some congratulated Stanley on his results.

Although Miller had submitted his paper in mid-December 1952, one reviewer did not believe the results and delayed its publication until May 15th. Later Carl Sagan would do many experiments varying the chemical percentages, but described the Miller-Urey experiments as "the single most significant step in convincing many scientists that life is likely to be abundant in the cosmos."
Early Earth: Flash in a Flask
Even today, only a few definitive things are known about what the Earth might have been like four billion years ago. It is thought that the early sun radiated only 70 percent of its modern power. No free oxygen could be found in Earth's atmosphere. The rocky wasteland lacked life. Absent were viruses, bacteria, plants and animals. Even the temperature itself is uncertain, since three schools of thought today maintain that the Earth could have been alternatively frozen, temperate or steamy.

Charles Darwin imagined life springing from a temperate world, with small ponds or runoff channels. Compared to diluted chemistry in a vast ocean, repeated evaporation and refilling have possible advantages, to find just the right concentrations somewhere so that biochemistry could begin. Glaciers, volcanoes, geysers and cometary debris potentially resupplied this primordial pond with both energy and more complex organic compounds. That is a scenario requiring relatively temperate starting conditions, and more extreme possibilities are also in the mix.

If the early Earth was a cauldron of volcanic activity, then seepage of acidic gases and heating might have circulated vital compounds to the surface. These vents may have been underwater, and precursors to biochemistry like acetic acid may have become reactive in combination with carbon monoxide. Alternatively, if the early Earth lacked any greenhouse of blanketing carbon dioxide, life could still have begun in a ball of ice. When combined with water, even a thin atmosphere of organics (formaldehyde, cyanide and ammonia) can create some building blocks of life (such as the amino acid, glycine). Thawing this 'snowball Earth' could then be triggered by a chance collision with large comets or meteors.

early_earth
Terrestrial options for early climate. Early earth, snowball, cauldron or temperate?Credit: NASA

To test whether a primordial pond or ocean could seed the stuff of life, some experiments were needed. Miller laid out an experimental plan. He filled a flask with methane (natural gas), hydrogen and ammonia. Another flask below provided a miniature pond of water, as the model for an early ocean. Discharging flashes of voltage to simulate lightning provided just the necessary spark for new chemistry to begin. When he left the pot to cook overnight, the odds seemed stacked against coming in the next morning to discover the simulated ocean had turned reddish-yellow. But he was surprised: given a simulated ocean, atmosphere and lightning, then a hydrogen-rich mix of methane and ammonia could be transformed to amino soup.

Stanley Miller with his Nobel Laureate supervisor, Harold Urey, demonstrated that 13 of the 21 amino acids necessary for life could be made in a glass flask. Placing water in this atmosphere, sparking a lightning discharge into simple organic molecules like ammonia surprised everyone by producing some of biology's essential building blocks. Indeed the formation of life had begun to take on a distinctly molecular character, as Charles Darwin had foreseen as his classical warm pond of organic soup: ("... some warm little pond, with all sorts of ammonia and phosphoric salts, light, heat, electricity etc..." ).

Miller found that at least 10 percent of the carbon was converted into a small number of organic compounds and about two percent went into amino acids. Hydrogen, cyanide, and aldehydes were also produced. Glycine was the most abundant amino acid produced.

Flash forward fifty years and many high schools chemistry labs routinely repeat Miller's classic result. Lasers are often substituted for high voltage discharges as an energy source, and this dramatically speeds up the signature yellowing of the primordial oceans.

But as the Earth's early chemistry has become better understood, a catch has arisen. Ironically, while complex biochemistry can spring from simpler building blocks, one missing element--the simplest hydrogen--may have been in short supply four billion years ago. Without it, the reactions don't trigger the right organic chemistry. If the Earth more likely was rich in nitrogen and carbon dioxide-- rather than hydrogen, methane and ammonia--, then any amount of sparking delivers a mere drop of organic byproducts. The primordial soup is too dilute.

Stanley_Miller.
University of Chicago graduate student, Stanley Miller, 1953.Credit: U. Chicago

Workarounds to get enough concentrated chemistry for self-assembly to arise have reverted to evaporation (such as tidal pools) or a large seeding event from a colliding comet. Both these could quicken the biochemistry enough for life.
Interview with Professor Stanley Miller
To commemorate the fiftieth anniversary for whom most consider the father of primordial chemistry, Professor Stanley Miller, of the University of California, San Diego, the Astrobiology Magazine had the opportunity to get his perspective today.


Astrobiology Magazine (AB): This is the fiftieth anniversary of your original University of Chicago work. Do you have any retrospective thoughts on what was going through your mind at the moment you starting flipping the electrode switch, and how successfully the experiment would carry forward as a classic at that time?

Professor Stanley Miller (SM): I would say curiosity was probably the primary impetus. Upon observing the results for the first time, my focus was devoted more to the "how and why" than the ramifications.

The actual long-term significance of the experiment has been an evolution in and of itself. I believed the results of the experiment would provide valuable insights into the origin of life, but at that time I hadn't really devoted much thought as to the extent of its influence.

The scientific community's immediate response, as well as that of the public media, was a very big surprise.

AB: What is your current opinion on the need for a primitive reducing atmosphere for pre-biotic life to take hold 3.5 to 3.8 billion years ago?

SM: I have not found an alternative to disprove the need for a primitive reducing atmosphere.

AB: Do you believe that material transported on meteors or comets is insufficient to seed life, if such amino acids were successfully transported intact to the surface of the Earth?

SM: Meteorite and other exogenous contributions become very important only if the earth had a neutral atmosphere. However, if the only sources of organic compounds under such conditions were the very small number of compounds produced with a CO2 rich atmosphere and delivered from outside, the amount may be too low for the origin of life.

AB: Since many astrobiologists are currently examining hydrothermal vents, in search of extremophiles, does the prebiotic chemistry actually get decomposed rather than enhanced by the presence of such ocean venting?

SM: Locating extremophiles is not relevant to the synthesis of organic compounds necessary for life, as the conditions of such ocean venting decomposes rather than enhances prebiotic chemistry.

AB: It has been reported that you had your first results within a matter of weeks, while Urey thought the original electrode experiments might exceed the limits of a 3-year degree program. Was the initial success due to the hint of using a reducing atmosphere or were there other parts of the rapid progress that surprised you?

SM: A reducing atmosphere was definitely the key, resulting first in the water turning red overnight, and after time continuing to change colors as synthesis of organic compounds proceeded. I never had any doubts about the outcome, but I was surprised at the efficiency of the synthesis.

primordial soup
Miller's classic experimental setup, with a simulated ocean, lightning and broth of hydrogen, methane, ammonia and water.

AB: Have you followed the methanogen research at all? It seems that the use of methane as a precursor was very important to the original experiments, and presumably the progress in methanogens provide some prospecting hints for astrobiologists.

SM: Methanogens appear to be a very ancient form of life, but their biology tell us nothing about the origin of the first biological system. I am sure once they evolved they begun contributing to the methane budget of the Archean atmosphere, however my concerns regarding the reducing atmosphere refer to the period before the origin of methanogenes themselves.

AB: Since this is also the fiftieth anniversary of the Watson-Crick publication, how would you characterize the 13 of 20 amino acids that can be synthesized prebiotically with the complexity of living cells manufacturing proteins from DNA? Is there a bridge that time has clarified there?

SM: Different researchers have different opinions about what is a prebiotic synthesis, but I do not think that there is yet a good prebiotic synthesis of arginine, lysine, and histidine, and of other biochemical compounds.

It is possible of course, that not all them were available in the primitive soup, and that some were synthesized by cells once they evolved. This would require the appearance of biosynthetic pathways, and the more complex they are, the more clear it becomes that they could have not appeared until the genome was sufficiently complex to encode for the proper catalysts.

John Oró showed that one could synthesize adenine, one of the nucleobases, with remarkable ease. Of course, we do not know how synthesis of proteins originated, but it is possible that once a catalytic apparatus was in place, some of the more complex amino acids like histidine resulted not from prebiotic synthesis, but from ancient metabolic pathways.
What's Next
There are other hurdles in the progression from simple molecules to complex life that are large research topics. Producing amino acids and nucleotides , and getting them to polymerize into proteins and nucleic acids (typically, RNA), are parts of a vast and ongoing 'origins' discussion. But RNA is a relatively fragile component (compared to DNA, or other biomolecules), and thus again its first appearance remains subject to the particular local conditions of the early Earth. To stabilize or catalyze the first biomolecules, clay crystals and vesicle reactions may have helped. No one has been able to synthesize RNA without the help of protein catalysts or nucleic acid templates.

Most scientists now believe that microbes can survive interplanetary journeys ensconced in meteors produced by asteroid impacts on planetary bodies containing life, and this observation has changed a number of the statistical assumptions about where and when biomolecules might first be seeded. Swedish chemist Svante Arrhenius first proposed the notion of interplanetary transport in 1903. However, for life to appear elsewhere, by some similar carbon-based pathway, and then arrive later on Earth means some similar primordial soup needed to be sparked someplace else--perhaps in a reducing atmosphere as Miller first showed fifty years ago.


Woops.. My bad. I read the article wrong. He began the making the necassary building blocks to begin the long process of evolution... Plus, this experiment happened 52 years ago, so that is most likely why we haven't heard anything about it. Here is the link if you don't want to read that or if you want to look at a couple of pictures.

http://www.astrobio.net/news/modules.php?o...article&sid=461

Report, edit, etc...Posted by MapUnprotector on 2005-05-10 at 18:24:35
He didn't create life, from what I understood, he just proved that organic compounds and the things necessary for life can be made from nonliving matter. I think I've heard that there are many organic compounds around the universe. I think this one moon of Jupiter has a sea of organic stuff. I think it was Titan. Saw it in this old Science News called Reflections on Titan.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Rantent on 2005-05-10 at 20:44:50
My veiw on life is that everything has a begining and an end, but for every end there is a new begining.

It's not really a cycle, but more a continuation.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Staredit.Net Essence on 2005-05-14 at 18:29:15
The dark is generous. Its first gift is concealment: our true faces lie in the dark beneath our skins, our true hearts remain shadowed deeper still. But the greatest concealment lies not in protecting our secret truths, but in hiding from us the truths of others. The dark protects us from what we dare not know.

Its second gift is comforting illusions: the ease of gentle dreams in night's embrace, the beauty that imagination brings to what would repel in day's harsh light. But the greatest of its comforts is the illusion that the dark is temporary: that every night brings a new day. Because it is day that is temporary. Day is the illusion.

Its third gift is the light itself: as days are defined by the nights that divide them, as stars are defined by the infinite black through which they wheel, the dark embraces the light, and brings it forth from the center of its own self.

--With each victory of the light, it is the dark that wins.--



The dark is generous, and it is patient, It is the dark that seeds cruelty into justice, that drips contempt into compassion, that poisons love with grains of doubt.

The dark can be patient, becuase the slightest drop of rain will cause those seeds to sprout.

The rain will come, and the seeds will sprout, for the dark is the soil in which they grow, and it is the clouds above them, and it waits behind the star that gives them light.

--The dark's patience is infinite.--



You killed her because, finally, when you could have saved her, when you could have gone away with her, when you could have been thinking about her, you were thinking about yourself ...It is in this blazing moment that you finally understand the trap of the dark side, the final cruelty of the sith -- because now your self is all that you will ever have.



Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate.

Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure.

It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us.



Your playing small doesn't serve the world.

There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you.

We were all meant to shine as children do

it is not in some of us: it's in everyone.

And when we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same.

As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others.



The dark is generous, and it is patient, and it always wins. It always wins because it is everwhere. It is in the wood that burns in your hearth, and in the kettle on the fire; it is under your chair and under your table and under the sheets on your bed. Walk in the midday sun and the dark is with you, attached to the soles of your feet.

--The brightest light casts the darkest shadow.--

ADDITION:
QUOTE
Fifty years ago on May 15, 1953, a University of Chicago graduate student, Stanley Miller, published a landmark two-page paper in Science magazine. He considered if amino acids could be made from what was known about the early Earth's atmosphere. Could the building blocks of life be cooked up?

earth_snow-ice
"... some warm little pond, with all sorts of ammonia and phosphoric salts, light, heat, electricity etc...", Charles Darwin, on the origins of life in tidal pools
Credit:Smithsonian

Miller began his paper:

    "The idea that the organic compounds that serve as the basis of life were formed when the earth had an atmosphere of methane, ammonia, water and hydrogen instead of carbon dioxide, nitrogen, oxygen and water was suggested by Oparin and has been given emphasis by Urey and Bernal. In order to test this hypothesis..."


When Miller first presented his experimental findings to a large seminar, it is reported that at one point, Enrico Fermi politely asked if it was known whether this kind of process could have actually taken place on the primitive Earth. Harold Urey, Stanley's research advisor, immediately replied, saying 'If God did not do it this way, then he missed a good bet'. The seminar ended amid the laughter and, as the attendees filed out, some congratulated Stanley on his results.

Although Miller had submitted his paper in mid-December 1952, one reviewer did not believe the results and delayed its publication until May 15th. Later Carl Sagan would do many experiments varying the chemical percentages, but described the Miller-Urey experiments as "the single most significant step in convincing many scientists that life is likely to be abundant in the cosmos."
Early Earth: Flash in a Flask
Even today, only a few definitive things are known about what the Earth might have been like four billion years ago. It is thought that the early sun radiated only 70 percent of its modern power. No free oxygen could be found in Earth's atmosphere. The rocky wasteland lacked life. Absent were viruses, bacteria, plants and animals. Even the temperature itself is uncertain, since three schools of thought today maintain that the Earth could have been alternatively frozen, temperate or steamy.

Charles Darwin imagined life springing from a temperate world, with small ponds or runoff channels. Compared to diluted chemistry in a vast ocean, repeated evaporation and refilling have possible advantages, to find just the right concentrations somewhere so that biochemistry could begin. Glaciers, volcanoes, geysers and cometary debris potentially resupplied this primordial pond with both energy and more complex organic compounds. That is a scenario requiring relatively temperate starting conditions, and more extreme possibilities are also in the mix.

If the early Earth was a cauldron of volcanic activity, then seepage of acidic gases and heating might have circulated vital compounds to the surface. These vents may have been underwater, and precursors to biochemistry like acetic acid may have become reactive in combination with carbon monoxide. Alternatively, if the early Earth lacked any greenhouse of blanketing carbon dioxide, life could still have begun in a ball of ice. When combined with water, even a thin atmosphere of organics (formaldehyde, cyanide and ammonia) can create some building blocks of life (such as the amino acid, glycine). Thawing this 'snowball Earth' could then be triggered by a chance collision with large comets or meteors.

early_earth
Terrestrial options for early climate. Early earth, snowball, cauldron or temperate?Credit: NASA

To test whether a primordial pond or ocean could seed the stuff of life, some experiments were needed. Miller laid out an experimental plan. He filled a flask with methane (natural gas), hydrogen and ammonia. Another flask below provided a miniature pond of water, as the model for an early ocean. Discharging flashes of voltage to simulate lightning provided just the necessary spark for new chemistry to begin. When he left the pot to cook overnight, the odds seemed stacked against coming in the next morning to discover the simulated ocean had turned reddish-yellow. But he was surprised: given a simulated ocean, atmosphere and lightning, then a hydrogen-rich mix of methane and ammonia could be transformed to amino soup.

Stanley Miller with his Nobel Laureate supervisor, Harold Urey, demonstrated that 13 of the 21 amino acids necessary for life could be made in a glass flask. Placing water in this atmosphere, sparking a lightning discharge into simple organic molecules like ammonia surprised everyone by producing some of biology's essential building blocks. Indeed the formation of life had begun to take on a distinctly molecular character, as Charles Darwin had foreseen as his classical warm pond of organic soup: ("... some warm little pond, with all sorts of ammonia and phosphoric salts, light, heat, electricity etc..." ).

Miller found that at least 10 percent of the carbon was converted into a small number of organic compounds and about two percent went into amino acids. Hydrogen, cyanide, and aldehydes were also produced. Glycine was the most abundant amino acid produced.

Flash forward fifty years and many high schools chemistry labs routinely repeat Miller's classic result. Lasers are often substituted for high voltage discharges as an energy source, and this dramatically speeds up the signature yellowing of the primordial oceans.

But as the Earth's early chemistry has become better understood, a catch has arisen. Ironically, while complex biochemistry can spring from simpler building blocks, one missing element--the simplest hydrogen--may have been in short supply four billion years ago. Without it, the reactions don't trigger the right organic chemistry. If the Earth more likely was rich in nitrogen and carbon dioxide-- rather than hydrogen, methane and ammonia--, then any amount of sparking delivers a mere drop of organic byproducts. The primordial soup is too dilute.

Stanley_Miller.
University of Chicago graduate student, Stanley Miller, 1953.Credit: U. Chicago

Workarounds to get enough concentrated chemistry for self-assembly to arise have reverted to evaporation (such as tidal pools) or a large seeding event from a colliding comet. Both these could quicken the biochemistry enough for life.
Interview with Professor Stanley Miller
To commemorate the fiftieth anniversary for whom most consider the father of primordial chemistry, Professor Stanley Miller, of the University of California, San Diego, the Astrobiology Magazine had the opportunity to get his perspective today.


Astrobiology Magazine (AB): This is the fiftieth anniversary of your original University of Chicago work. Do you have any retrospective thoughts on what was going through your mind at the moment you starting flipping the electrode switch, and how successfully the experiment would carry forward as a classic at that time?

Professor Stanley Miller (SM): I would say curiosity was probably the primary impetus. Upon observing the results for the first time, my focus was devoted more to the "how and why" than the ramifications.

The actual long-term significance of the experiment has been an evolution in and of itself. I believed the results of the experiment would provide valuable insights into the origin of life, but at that time I hadn't really devoted much thought as to the extent of its influence.

The scientific community's immediate response, as well as that of the public media, was a very big surprise.

AB: What is your current opinion on the need for a primitive reducing atmosphere for pre-biotic life to take hold 3.5 to 3.8 billion years ago?

SM: I have not found an alternative to disprove the need for a primitive reducing atmosphere.

AB: Do you believe that material transported on meteors or comets is insufficient to seed life, if such amino acids were successfully transported intact to the surface of the Earth?

SM: Meteorite and other exogenous contributions become very important only if the earth had a neutral atmosphere. However, if the only sources of organic compounds under such conditions were the very small number of compounds produced with a CO2 rich atmosphere and delivered from outside, the amount may be too low for the origin of life.

AB: Since many astrobiologists are currently examining hydrothermal vents, in search of extremophiles, does the prebiotic chemistry actually get decomposed rather than enhanced by the presence of such ocean venting?

SM: Locating extremophiles is not relevant to the synthesis of organic compounds necessary for life, as the conditions of such ocean venting decomposes rather than enhances prebiotic chemistry.

AB: It has been reported that you had your first results within a matter of weeks, while Urey thought the original electrode experiments might exceed the limits of a 3-year degree program. Was the initial success due to the hint of using a reducing atmosphere or were there other parts of the rapid progress that surprised you?

SM: A reducing atmosphere was definitely the key, resulting first in the water turning red overnight, and after time continuing to change colors as synthesis of organic compounds proceeded. I never had any doubts about the outcome, but I was surprised at the efficiency of the synthesis.

primordial soup
Miller's classic experimental setup, with a simulated ocean, lightning and broth of hydrogen, methane, ammonia and water.

AB: Have you followed the methanogen research at all? It seems that the use of methane as a precursor was very important to the original experiments, and presumably the progress in methanogens provide some prospecting hints for astrobiologists.

SM: Methanogens appear to be a very ancient form of life, but their biology tell us nothing about the origin of the first biological system. I am sure once they evolved they begun contributing to the methane budget of the Archean atmosphere, however my concerns regarding the reducing atmosphere refer to the period before the origin of methanogenes themselves.

AB: Since this is also the fiftieth anniversary of the Watson-Crick publication, how would you characterize the 13 of 20 amino acids that can be synthesized prebiotically with the complexity of living cells manufacturing proteins from DNA? Is there a bridge that time has clarified there?

SM: Different researchers have different opinions about what is a prebiotic synthesis, but I do not think that there is yet a good prebiotic synthesis of arginine, lysine, and histidine, and of other biochemical compounds.

It is possible of course, that not all them were available in the primitive soup, and that some were synthesized by cells once they evolved. This would require the appearance of biosynthetic pathways, and the more complex they are, the more clear it becomes that they could have not appeared until the genome was sufficiently complex to encode for the proper catalysts.

John Oró showed that one could synthesize adenine, one of the nucleobases, with remarkable ease. Of course, we do not know how synthesis of proteins originated, but it is possible that once a catalytic apparatus was in place, some of the more complex amino acids like histidine resulted not from prebiotic synthesis, but from ancient metabolic pathways.
What's Next
There are other hurdles in the progression from simple molecules to complex life that are large research topics. Producing amino acids and nucleotides , and getting them to polymerize into proteins and nucleic acids (typically, RNA), are parts of a vast and ongoing 'origins' discussion. But RNA is a relatively fragile component (compared to DNA, or other biomolecules), and thus again its first appearance remains subject to the particular local conditions of the early Earth. To stabilize or catalyze the first biomolecules, clay crystals and vesicle reactions may have helped. No one has been able to synthesize RNA without the help of protein catalysts or nucleic acid templates.

Most scientists now believe that microbes can survive interplanetary journeys ensconced in meteors produced by asteroid impacts on planetary bodies containing life, and this observation has changed a number of the statistical assumptions about where and when biomolecules might first be seeded. Swedish chemist Svante Arrhenius first proposed the notion of interplanetary transport in 1903. However, for life to appear elsewhere, by some similar carbon-based pathway, and then arrive later on Earth means some similar primordial soup needed to be sparked someplace else--perhaps in a reducing atmosphere as Miller first showed fifty years ago.



dude thats really long
Report, edit, etc...Posted by O)FaRTy1billion on 2005-05-14 at 18:54:37
QUOTE(devilesk @ May 10 2005, 03:24 PM)
He didn't create life, from what I understood, he just proved that organic compounds and the things necessary for life can be made from nonliving matter. I think I've heard that there are many organic compounds around the universe. I think this one moon of Jupiter has a sea of organic stuff. I think it was Titan. Saw it in this old Science News called Reflections on Titan.

No, they are guessing because they can tell that it is liquid underneath by its cracking ice surface.
Unless they sent thir probe thingy and did find it...

On mars rocks they found little bacterias that were fossilized.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by MapUnprotector on 2005-05-14 at 19:03:18
The article I read in was talking about their probe that would land on Titan, I'm not sure if it had landed, and they listed some possible scenarios for what they would find on the surface and one of them was an organic sea.

I read the article, it said on Jan 14, which already past, the Huygens probe will land on Titan.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Rantent on 2005-05-15 at 21:29:53
QUOTE
For matter cannot be created nor destroyed, its basically been proven.
Um, I just noticed this, and it's been theorized that matter is created and destroyed all the time. Calculations on a quantum level do not make sense if matter exsists all the time. It is constantly being interchanged between matter and energy. We would never notice it though, as the particals being interchanged are smaller than quarks, which are smaller than protons and electrons, which are smaller than atoms, which we are still not close to being able to see with our most powerfull microscope.

And about the moon of jupiter, they think there is water underneath huge amounts of ice. I can't remember why they think that, but the moon was known as Io and they think that there is 7-6 miles thick of ice surrounding the whole moon. So I don't think we'll know if there is life there anytime soon.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by MapUnprotector on 2005-05-15 at 21:37:02
Oh whoops, Titan is one of Saturn's moons closedeyes.gif But yea the article from Science News was about Titan.

Ah I found the online version of the article!
http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20041120/bob8.asp
Report, edit, etc...Posted by brutetal on 2005-05-19 at 02:16:02
QUOTE(farscope @ May 9 2005, 11:26 PM)

for matter will always be here, but the energy of the matter doesnt, energy is basically the work that matter does, or capacity of it. at the end of where energy goes that it gets wasted is HEAT ;energy is converted all the way to the last thing which is heat.

even when matter is converted to heat, it may look as though matter has been destroyed, nope its still there just in a different form, so like i said earlier if matter cannot be created or destroyed, then when all of matter gets converted to heat, then something will happen i gaurentee it. something that we don't know about or something like the big bang will happen and then it will restart again.
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Energy means: ablility to do work!

Acutally energy/matter can not be created nor destroyed, so the Thermal, HEAT, energy is mearly changing to PE or Potential energy! and heat isn't the last thing!
It's basicly a loop! Matter can't be converted to heat! The Thermal energy is the rusalt of energy by friction.

Sorry, but your a year behind on your physics class! and what else is sad, that it's Elementary Science.

I'm also sorry to brust your theory but the Big Bang is a slim chance of happing again or somthing like that. If it was to happen then it would had to be intentional.
I don't know who would wanna do it but we live in a planet of well over 1 billion humans their might be 1 theorist to do it...

Also: I'm not flaming I'm just fixing your errors of what you said.
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