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To keep this thread at a level of violence less than that in Iraq right now, I ask everyone to please avoid using caps and exclamation marks at all cost.

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As much as I've tried to distance myself from politics, sometimes I just can't: no matter how hard I try. The purpose of this topic is for me to get to know the feelings of all of you, not for everyone to start flaming each other because one person thinks he's more profound than another person. I hope to learn from you, and also hope the topic viewers can learn from what they read, not just yell angrily like adults.

So, what are your viewpoints? The following are my feelings. Feel free to correct me, because that's why I'm posting them here. Simply point out the faults, don't start yelling at my ignorance toward modern politics or whatever.


The Rebels are fighting because they feel oppressed by the Americans.
The Americans are not leaving because they feel the Rebels are too powerful compared to Iraq's own army and police force.

The Rebels are fighting because of religion.
The American soldiers are fighting because of politics.

The U.S. should withdraw from Iraq regardless of the current Iraqi government's stability, because its presence itself endangers that stability.
One of the reasons the U.S. is not withdrawing is that Bush does not want to lose face and listen to "I told you so"s, and in the current situation it would also seem like the Al-Qaeda video made us fearful.

The U.S. is stupid because it got itself into this situation.
The Rebels are stupid because they can't just find some other way to attract attention by blowing up as many people--soldiers or civilians--as they possibly can. Which is a lot.

I clicked the link. http://www.homeport.org/~adam/shttp.html ????

Dude, why are you telling us to go look at how to do HTML or whatever?

Something happened to the link, I've corrected it.

They stated America being in Iraq is part ofthe problem with the terrorist attacks in London. Many people could easely say that if Britian was doing more in the War on Terror this wouldn't have happened. If other European countires did more, this wouldn't have happened.

PLus London was asking to be bombed. In London they have these muslem comunities where there are preachers telling thier people that it is ok to bomb infadels and you should do it! Now I am all for free speech, but some of what these guys were saying are pretty much treasonish. And you know why there are so many arrests happening right now? Its becuase London Police finally went in and arrested all those guys, who talked, which lead to more arrests.

America can't leave Iraq now, that would be the betral of all those Iraqis who do believe in our cause. America will leave once the Iraqi government can handle the insurgency. I believe the insurgents aren't just targeting Americans any more, no no, they are talking Iraqis more often now. I truelly beleive they are afraid that Iraq will become a stable democratic country. Which is bad news for terrorists who seek power. We have trained over 50 batalions (or how ever you spell it) in the Iraqi army and only 6 or so are combat independent. Meaning they don't need our support.

We are going to be in Iraq for at least till next year. If things aren't better till next year we must hold Bush accountable for this mess.

lol

Let's burn those rock thrower.

No? aww damn!
Well, Their Country is now held by who they qualify as "Infidel". Terrorism is the only way to make them leave. And don't tell me :poo: like Diplomacy. It's don't worth nothing when it come to USA!

A wrong but workin' way to get Heard.

Hmm, some fallen soldier's mom got about 50 protesters to go to Bush's ranch and picket.

Does anyone see the real problem here? People aren't protesting until someone they know dies. What if that's the problem with the whole country? People assume that, with the technology we have today, soldiers are like invincible robots. 3 stacked roadside bombs flipping a several ton tank should make them think differently.

Then of course there's the whole question of why the war was even started in the first place...

well not always, its usually the parents who didn't want their sons/daughters to join the army in the first place. Then when the sons/daughters are killed they go on and protest against the war. Now if you think about this war in a traditional sense, you will see that we are doing AWSOME. In the last 6 months we have killed or captured over 50,000 insurgents/terrorists, and thats ojnly in 6 months. In the years we have been in Iraq, we have only lost little over 1,800. Now at a general/historian stand point this could possibly be the greatest victory in history. But again, these are Americans dieing and thats always bad. Im just trying to see Iraq from a different view point then most people.

We could have won it much more easily though, I think an aircraft bombardment would have been much easier. We could have prescion bombed key points of defense, and so on. We have stealth bombers these days, and they are all but impossible to detect, so we should use them.

I am not against chemical warfare against terrorists, especialy suicide bombers.

Errrm, we used everything we had. It wasn't a victory. It was a slaughter.

Uh, clarify please.... that went right over my head.

He means that the U.S. used everything they could for urban warfare and still got their butts whupped.

ehhh no, he means the Iraqi army under Sadam got it's butt wooped, theres no slaughter going on for our troops. 50,000 vrs. 1,800. mmmmm I would say the greater number is getting slaughtered. America just jerishes it's troops more.

Do you really think winning a war is about killing more than the other side did yours? What would happen if everyone tried to win then? We'd have the real world: that is, everyone try to kill more people. That's what terrorists do. The U.S. hasn't won and isn't winning. Saddam may be captured and his national army broken up, but that's just the tip of the iceberg.

What do you want me to say?

I think that you should be looking at the casualties as a percentage of the total number of soldiers on each side, and that maybe that would tell a different story.

Also, what the hell is all this about Britain 'asking for it' because we're not doing enough in the war on terror? We are the only country still fighting with you in Iraq, you know...we've got the south of the country pretty secure.

However, I do agree with the comments about us not combatting fundamentalism at its source: Those damned Islamic clerics preaching their praise of suicide bombers and extremists are a problem and we're doing nothing about it because we don't want to appear racist and/or restrictive of free speech. Impressionable young men listen to these people and have ideas put in their heads about an 'Islamic revolution' or that Britain deserves to be bombed. This then leads to them blowing themselves up in crowded areas.

Personally, I feel that the immigrant clerics who ceaselessly preach messages of hate against the country they immigrated to, should be deported to their country of origin. The clerics who were born in Britain, but still preach against it, should be jailed if any link can be found between them and terrorist acts.

War is enjoyable.

Unfortunately when we say stuff like this they think we're dissing their religion that they value more than life so they do the things as described by this quote and when we talk about it they say we're dissing their religion...

I know - it's a vicious circle.

I was useing the term 'Asking for it' and 'Not doing enough' as figures of speech. Such as: America is the reason why london got bombed!!!!! I was saying that I 'could' say that Britian's not doing enough and thats why. But we all know Britian is America's best-good-friend (Forest Gump).



ehhh yep.

Every one trying to win? Ok so your in a war and you don't want to win it? Please re-word your statement becuase that just doesn't make sense.

In a war you must kill your oponnent. Kill him as much as you can until he submits to you (surrender etc..) Im sorry, its just the way it is.

We aren't winning the war?? How are we losing is the question! Ok lets list out the Insurgent victories............. well........mmmm........They blew up Ackbar accross the street today!

Ok lets make a list of what America has done: Defeated Saddam's Army, liberated Iraq, stopped insurgents from burning oil fields, allowed the assembly of Iraqi governing officials, allowed free elections for the first time is years, allowed women to vote, the list goes on and on.....

The insurgents have stopped nothing that we have done. I'm just interested on how we are losing.

Have you ever read The Things They Carried by Tim O'Brien?

I hate that book, and I hate the Vietnam war.

Unfortunately, coming from you, that doesn't mean anything. My question was directed at STARS-Chris anyway.

Okay. Why do you like it?

nope, but that interests me and I think I will go and read it. Thank you for that.

Now, have you ever read They Just Don't Get It by David Hunt (Army ret.)?? Its a good read and explains exactly whats going on in the middle east and how good/bad it is over there.