Report, edit, etc...Posted by atlass on 2006-01-02 at 01:04:10
I've participated in a lot of religious threads, and for the most part I have tried to sift through the cliched arguements against religion that never get anywhere and really get to the meat of the issue- the logical inconsistencies in religion, namely Christianity, since I'm most familiar with it.
I'd like to share with you my thoughts on this subject, in hopes that I might spark a debate and get some answers and new ideas flowing here. Feel free to point out if I am wrong in any of the assertions I make here.
Older Religions
Let me start by saying that, throughout history, no religion has ever been disproven. Ever. Unless your talking strange, wacky cults with guys luring in followers with cheap parlor tricks, no one has gone up and searched the cosmos and come back saying God X doesn't exist.
The only reason why people stopped believing in older religions is because they no longer cared for their Gods, or the rituals. No one disproved Zeus to the Greeks, and no one disproved the Gods of the Aztecs either. They simply abandoned their religion in favor of a more friendly religion that didn't involve ripping out people's hearts.
And it's not just the move away from older religions, but modern day religions themselves have changed according to the desires of the followers. Hundreds of years ago, it would be unthinkable to eat meat on Friday. But now it's no big deal. Nobody cares. Likewise, it used to be a horrible crime to not believe in God, punishable by death.
Other Religions
Christians can sweet-talk it all they want with "I respect the beliefs of others" and all that, but what you are basicly saying is "I believe they are going to hell, and I don't care." Every religion everywhere says the same thing. "Our religion is right, and everyone else is wrong." None of them have any more credibility than any other, thus to make such a bold assertion, especially given the fact that the world is practically saturated by different faiths already, is meaningless.
Believers talk all the time about "conversion experiences" and "miracles," but so does every other religion in the world. Why do you think people in, say, India, put spikes and stuff through their nose and tongues and such? They are not being forced to, they are merely expressing their devotion. Just as the Aztecs expressed their devotion by killing people, and the Jews by getting a circumcision. Followers of every religion are every bit as faithful in their "false" beliefs as Christians are of theirs. They too feel spiritual experiances. Do these spirtual experiances come from evil spirits? If so, why would such evil spirits command, say, Muslims to give alms to the poor?
God's "Judgement"
In Christianity, sin really doesn't matter. I doesn't matter how many people you raped, pillaged, and slaughtered, as long as you did it in the name of Jesus and remained loyal to him. Your slate is whiped clean as soon as you reach heaven. On the other hand, a Hindu or something that had devoted their life to helping the poor and feeding the needy is screwed out of that. He goes to hell. And no, we're not talking the Dante-esque "not quite as bad hell." Unless I'm mistaken, hell is hell. There are no sub-sections of it. It doesn't matter whether you are a saint or a genocidal killer, it's all about if you accept Jesus.
God is Reponsible for Everything
Now this is a simple extension of logic: If God created everything, knowing how it would turn out, then everything that exists must exist because God wants it to. Pain, suffering, evil, death- God wanted these things to be in there, for whatever reason. Even if they are by-products of His creations, He still saw them coming, and did nothing to stop them. "It's not his fault, he sees what will happen in the future, including his future inteventions?" Well... no, unless you are saying God is governed by the constrains of time, which I assume he is not. "But if he stopped X person from doing Y sin, he'd be denying free will!" God volutarily chooses to have a policy of giving people free will. He doesn't have to, nothing is forcing Him to, and in fact He could very well be going willy-nilly with our free will as we speak and we'd never know it. By the fact that God chooses to bestow free will on people, it stands to reason that any outcome of said arrangement is one He's okay with. If this guy ends up doing drugs, killing hookers, and joining the Nazi party, it's all good. "But you can't have free will without good and bad choices!" Yes you can. Lets say you have the choice to buy flowers for the sweet old lady next door, feed orphans, compliment your neighbor on their lawn, give money to charity, hire a hooker, murder your wife, play punching bag with a random kid that walks by. Obviously there are far, far more possibilities of what you can do, but we'll keep it simple for now. Even if you excluded the 3 bad choices from that list, you would still have the "free will" to do any of the 4 nice things. Evil and bad stuff is not neccesary. God could have made the universe any way he pleased. He is not bound by any law of nature or any higher being to do it that way. Therefore, bad things exist because God wants them to.
And on the topic of free will, here's another point: If angels indeed have no free will, then how was Lucifer able to rebel against God? Heck, how could he persuade a bunch of other angels to turn to his side if they didn't have the free will to do so?
The Portrayal of God in the Bible
When we hear all these things about how God is perfect, flawless, infinitely loving, all powerful, all knowing, eternal, blah blah blah... who is telling us this?
Did the author of the Bible look up and see God and say, "Wow, now that guy is pretty darn perfect! I think I'll right it down!"
Or was it more like God saying to the author, "Hey, Paul, don't forget to write about how perfect I am. Oh, and all-knowing! Yeah, that's a good one!
I'd like to share with you my thoughts on this subject, in hopes that I might spark a debate and get some answers and new ideas flowing here. Feel free to point out if I am wrong in any of the assertions I make here.
Older Religions
Let me start by saying that, throughout history, no religion has ever been disproven. Ever. Unless your talking strange, wacky cults with guys luring in followers with cheap parlor tricks, no one has gone up and searched the cosmos and come back saying God X doesn't exist.
The only reason why people stopped believing in older religions is because they no longer cared for their Gods, or the rituals. No one disproved Zeus to the Greeks, and no one disproved the Gods of the Aztecs either. They simply abandoned their religion in favor of a more friendly religion that didn't involve ripping out people's hearts.
And it's not just the move away from older religions, but modern day religions themselves have changed according to the desires of the followers. Hundreds of years ago, it would be unthinkable to eat meat on Friday. But now it's no big deal. Nobody cares. Likewise, it used to be a horrible crime to not believe in God, punishable by death.
Other Religions
Christians can sweet-talk it all they want with "I respect the beliefs of others" and all that, but what you are basicly saying is "I believe they are going to hell, and I don't care." Every religion everywhere says the same thing. "Our religion is right, and everyone else is wrong." None of them have any more credibility than any other, thus to make such a bold assertion, especially given the fact that the world is practically saturated by different faiths already, is meaningless.
Believers talk all the time about "conversion experiences" and "miracles," but so does every other religion in the world. Why do you think people in, say, India, put spikes and stuff through their nose and tongues and such? They are not being forced to, they are merely expressing their devotion. Just as the Aztecs expressed their devotion by killing people, and the Jews by getting a circumcision. Followers of every religion are every bit as faithful in their "false" beliefs as Christians are of theirs. They too feel spiritual experiances. Do these spirtual experiances come from evil spirits? If so, why would such evil spirits command, say, Muslims to give alms to the poor?
God's "Judgement"
In Christianity, sin really doesn't matter. I doesn't matter how many people you raped, pillaged, and slaughtered, as long as you did it in the name of Jesus and remained loyal to him. Your slate is whiped clean as soon as you reach heaven. On the other hand, a Hindu or something that had devoted their life to helping the poor and feeding the needy is screwed out of that. He goes to hell. And no, we're not talking the Dante-esque "not quite as bad hell." Unless I'm mistaken, hell is hell. There are no sub-sections of it. It doesn't matter whether you are a saint or a genocidal killer, it's all about if you accept Jesus.
God is Reponsible for Everything
Now this is a simple extension of logic: If God created everything, knowing how it would turn out, then everything that exists must exist because God wants it to. Pain, suffering, evil, death- God wanted these things to be in there, for whatever reason. Even if they are by-products of His creations, He still saw them coming, and did nothing to stop them. "It's not his fault, he sees what will happen in the future, including his future inteventions?" Well... no, unless you are saying God is governed by the constrains of time, which I assume he is not. "But if he stopped X person from doing Y sin, he'd be denying free will!" God volutarily chooses to have a policy of giving people free will. He doesn't have to, nothing is forcing Him to, and in fact He could very well be going willy-nilly with our free will as we speak and we'd never know it. By the fact that God chooses to bestow free will on people, it stands to reason that any outcome of said arrangement is one He's okay with. If this guy ends up doing drugs, killing hookers, and joining the Nazi party, it's all good. "But you can't have free will without good and bad choices!" Yes you can. Lets say you have the choice to buy flowers for the sweet old lady next door, feed orphans, compliment your neighbor on their lawn, give money to charity, hire a hooker, murder your wife, play punching bag with a random kid that walks by. Obviously there are far, far more possibilities of what you can do, but we'll keep it simple for now. Even if you excluded the 3 bad choices from that list, you would still have the "free will" to do any of the 4 nice things. Evil and bad stuff is not neccesary. God could have made the universe any way he pleased. He is not bound by any law of nature or any higher being to do it that way. Therefore, bad things exist because God wants them to.
And on the topic of free will, here's another point: If angels indeed have no free will, then how was Lucifer able to rebel against God? Heck, how could he persuade a bunch of other angels to turn to his side if they didn't have the free will to do so?
The Portrayal of God in the Bible
When we hear all these things about how God is perfect, flawless, infinitely loving, all powerful, all knowing, eternal, blah blah blah... who is telling us this?
Did the author of the Bible look up and see God and say, "Wow, now that guy is pretty darn perfect! I think I'll right it down!"
Or was it more like God saying to the author, "Hey, Paul, don't forget to write about how perfect I am. Oh, and all-knowing! Yeah, that's a good one!
Report, edit, etc...Posted by titus on 2006-01-02 at 01:56:28
QUOTE(atlass @ Jan 1 2006, 10:04 PM)
God is Reponsible for Everything
Now this is a simple extension of logic: If God created everything, knowing how it would turn out, then everything that exists must exist because God wants it to. Pain, suffering, evil, death- God wanted these things to be in there, for whatever reason. Even if they are by-products of His creations, He still saw them coming, and did nothing to stop them. "It's not his fault, he sees what will happen in the future, including his future inteventions?" Well... no, unless you are saying God is governed by the constrains of time, which I assume he is not. "But if he stopped X person from doing Y sin, he'd be denying free will!" God volutarily chooses to have a policy of giving people free will. He doesn't have to, nothing is forcing Him to, and in fact He could very well be going willy-nilly with our free will as we speak and we'd never know it. By the fact that God chooses to bestow free will on people, it stands to reason that any outcome of said arrangement is one He's okay with. If this guy ends up doing drugs, killing hookers, and joining the Nazi party, it's all good. "But you can't have free will without good and bad choices!" Yes you can. Lets say you have the choice to buy flowers for the sweet old lady next door, feed orphans, compliment your neighbor on their lawn, give money to charity, hire a hooker, murder your wife, play punching bag with a random kid that walks by. Obviously there are far, far more possibilities of what you can do, but we'll keep it simple for now. Even if you excluded the 3 bad choices from that list, you would still have the "free will" to do any of the 4 nice things. Evil and bad stuff is not neccesary. God could have made the universe any way he pleased. He is not bound by any law of nature or any higher being to do it that way. Therefore, bad things exist because God wants them to.
And on the topic of free will, here's another point: If angels indeed have no free will, then how was Lucifer able to rebel against God? Heck, how could he persuade a bunch of other angels to turn to his side if they didn't have the free will to do so?
The Portrayal of God in the Bible
When we hear all these things about how God is perfect, flawless, infinitely loving, all powerful, all knowing, eternal, blah blah blah... who is telling us this?
Did the author of the Bible look up and see God and say, "Wow, now that guy is pretty darn perfect! I think I'll right it down!"
Or was it more like God saying to the author, "Hey, Paul, don't forget to write about how perfect I am. Oh, and all-knowing! Yeah, that's a good one!
[right][snapback]396221[/snapback][/right]
Now this is a simple extension of logic: If God created everything, knowing how it would turn out, then everything that exists must exist because God wants it to. Pain, suffering, evil, death- God wanted these things to be in there, for whatever reason. Even if they are by-products of His creations, He still saw them coming, and did nothing to stop them. "It's not his fault, he sees what will happen in the future, including his future inteventions?" Well... no, unless you are saying God is governed by the constrains of time, which I assume he is not. "But if he stopped X person from doing Y sin, he'd be denying free will!" God volutarily chooses to have a policy of giving people free will. He doesn't have to, nothing is forcing Him to, and in fact He could very well be going willy-nilly with our free will as we speak and we'd never know it. By the fact that God chooses to bestow free will on people, it stands to reason that any outcome of said arrangement is one He's okay with. If this guy ends up doing drugs, killing hookers, and joining the Nazi party, it's all good. "But you can't have free will without good and bad choices!" Yes you can. Lets say you have the choice to buy flowers for the sweet old lady next door, feed orphans, compliment your neighbor on their lawn, give money to charity, hire a hooker, murder your wife, play punching bag with a random kid that walks by. Obviously there are far, far more possibilities of what you can do, but we'll keep it simple for now. Even if you excluded the 3 bad choices from that list, you would still have the "free will" to do any of the 4 nice things. Evil and bad stuff is not neccesary. God could have made the universe any way he pleased. He is not bound by any law of nature or any higher being to do it that way. Therefore, bad things exist because God wants them to.
And on the topic of free will, here's another point: If angels indeed have no free will, then how was Lucifer able to rebel against God? Heck, how could he persuade a bunch of other angels to turn to his side if they didn't have the free will to do so?
The Portrayal of God in the Bible
When we hear all these things about how God is perfect, flawless, infinitely loving, all powerful, all knowing, eternal, blah blah blah... who is telling us this?
Did the author of the Bible look up and see God and say, "Wow, now that guy is pretty darn perfect! I think I'll right it down!"
Or was it more like God saying to the author, "Hey, Paul, don't forget to write about how perfect I am. Oh, and all-knowing! Yeah, that's a good one!
[right][snapback]396221[/snapback][/right]
i am too tired to address the rest of your post, but 'the problem of evil' is not a very valid argument against god. the reason we have free will/evil in the world is, in a sense, a test - we have to PROVE to god we love and respect him. in order to do so, we mustn't sin (etc). also, the evil is putting man through trials - take, for example, the entire book of job. if man simply gives up in the face of a problem, how worthy is he to get into heaven? man must persevere and prove himself to god.
the bible says god is perfect because god is perfect. the bible is god's voice, through man.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Staredit.Net Essence on 2006-01-02 at 02:43:49
This deserves to be locked. It's a flame war, waiting to happen.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Staredit.Net Essence on 2006-01-02 at 02:56:18
And you always fuel it, Don't post here if you think it'll be flame, or better yet, don't spam here.
I've participated in a lot of religious threads, and for the most part I have tried to sift through the cliched arguements against religion that never get anywhere and really get to the meat of the issue- the logical inconsistencies in religion, namely Christianity, since I'm most familiar with it.
I'd like to share with you my thoughts on this subject, in hopes that I might spark a debate and get some answers and new ideas flowing here. Feel free to point out if I am wrong in any of the assertions I make here.
Older Religions
Let me start by saying that, throughout history, no religion has ever been disproven. Ever. Unless your talking strange, wacky cults with guys luring in followers with cheap parlor tricks, no one has gone up and searched the cosmos and come back saying God X doesn't exist.
The only reason why people stopped believing in older religions is because they no longer cared for their Gods, or the rituals. No one disproved Zeus to the Greeks, and no one disproved the Gods of the Aztecs either. They simply abandoned their religion in favor of a more friendly religion that didn't involve ripping out people's hearts.
And it's not just the move away from older religions, but modern day religions themselves have changed according to the desires of the followers. Hundreds of years ago, it would be unthinkable to eat meat on Friday. But now it's no big deal. Nobody cares. Likewise, it used to be a horrible crime to not believe in God, punishable by death.
Other Religions
Christians can sweet-talk it all they want with "I respect the beliefs of others" and all that, but what you are basicly saying is "I believe they are going to hell, and I don't care." Every religion everywhere says the same thing. "Our religion is right, and everyone else is wrong." None of them have any more credibility than any other, thus to make such a bold assertion, especially given the fact that the world is practically saturated by different faiths already, is meaningless.
Believers talk all the time about "conversion experiences" and "miracles," but so does every other religion in the world. Why do you think people in, say, India, put spikes and stuff through their nose and tongues and such? They are not being forced to, they are merely expressing their devotion. Just as the Aztecs expressed their devotion by killing people, and the Jews by getting a circumcision. Followers of every religion are every bit as faithful in their "false" beliefs as Christians are of theirs. They too feel spiritual experiances. Do these spirtual experiances come from evil spirits? If so, why would such evil spirits command, say, Muslims to give alms to the poor?
God's "Judgement"
In Christianity, sin really doesn't matter. I doesn't matter how many people you raped, pillaged, and slaughtered, as long as you did it in the name of Jesus and remained loyal to him. Your slate is whiped clean as soon as you reach heaven. On the other hand, a Hindu or something that had devoted their life to helping the poor and feeding the needy is screwed out of that. He goes to hell. And no, we're not talking the Dante-esque "not quite as bad hell." Unless I'm mistaken, hell is hell. There are no sub-sections of it. It doesn't matter whether you are a saint or a genocidal killer, it's all about if you accept Jesus.
God is Reponsible for Everything
Now this is a simple extension of logic: If God created everything, knowing how it would turn out, then everything that exists must exist because God wants it to. Pain, suffering, evil, death- God wanted these things to be in there, for whatever reason. Even if they are by-products of His creations, He still saw them coming, and did nothing to stop them. "It's not his fault, he sees what will happen in the future, including his future inteventions?" Well... no, unless you are saying God is governed by the constrains of time, which I assume he is not. "But if he stopped X person from doing Y sin, he'd be denying free will!" God volutarily chooses to have a policy of giving people free will. He doesn't have to, nothing is forcing Him to, and in fact He could very well be going willy-nilly with our free will as we speak and we'd never know it. By the fact that God chooses to bestow free will on people, it stands to reason that any outcome of said arrangement is one He's okay with. If this guy ends up doing drugs, killing hookers, and joining the Nazi party, it's all good. "But you can't have free will without good and bad choices!" Yes you can. Lets say you have the choice to buy flowers for the sweet old lady next door, feed orphans, compliment your neighbor on their lawn, give money to charity, hire a hooker, murder your wife, play punching bag with a random kid that walks by. Obviously there are far, far more possibilities of what you can do, but we'll keep it simple for now. Even if you excluded the 3 bad choices from that list, you would still have the "free will" to do any of the 4 nice things. Evil and bad stuff is not neccesary. God could have made the universe any way he pleased. He is not bound by any law of nature or any higher being to do it that way. Therefore, bad things exist because God wants them to.
And on the topic of free will, here's another point: If angels indeed have no free will, then how was Lucifer able to rebel against God? Heck, how could he persuade a bunch of other angels to turn to his side if they didn't have the free will to do so?
The Portrayal of God in the Bible
When we hear all these things about how God is perfect, flawless, infinitely loving, all powerful, all knowing, eternal, blah blah blah... who is telling us this?
Did the author of the Bible look up and see God and say, "Wow, now that guy is pretty darn perfect! I think I'll right it down!"
Or was it more like God saying to the author, "Hey, Paul, don't forget to write about how perfect I am. Oh, and all-knowing! Yeah, that's a good one!
[right][snapback]396221[/snapback][/right]
i am too tired to address the rest of your post, but 'the problem of evil' is not a very valid argument against god. the reason we have free will/evil in the world is, in a sense, a test - we have to PROVE to god we love and respect him. in order to do so, we mustn't sin (etc). also, the evil is putting man through trials - take, for example, the entire book of job. if man simply gives up in the face of a problem, how worthy is he to get into heaven? man must persevere and prove himself to god.
the bible says god is perfect because god is perfect. the bible is god's voice, through man.
[right][snapback]396258[/snapback][/right]
We don't have to 'prove' anything, he choose to give us life and make decisions.
QUOTE(titus @ Jan 2 2006, 12:56 AM)
QUOTE(atlass @ Jan 2 2006, 12:04 AM)
I've participated in a lot of religious threads, and for the most part I have tried to sift through the cliched arguements against religion that never get anywhere and really get to the meat of the issue- the logical inconsistencies in religion, namely Christianity, since I'm most familiar with it.
I'd like to share with you my thoughts on this subject, in hopes that I might spark a debate and get some answers and new ideas flowing here. Feel free to point out if I am wrong in any of the assertions I make here.
Older Religions
Let me start by saying that, throughout history, no religion has ever been disproven. Ever. Unless your talking strange, wacky cults with guys luring in followers with cheap parlor tricks, no one has gone up and searched the cosmos and come back saying God X doesn't exist.
The only reason why people stopped believing in older religions is because they no longer cared for their Gods, or the rituals. No one disproved Zeus to the Greeks, and no one disproved the Gods of the Aztecs either. They simply abandoned their religion in favor of a more friendly religion that didn't involve ripping out people's hearts.
And it's not just the move away from older religions, but modern day religions themselves have changed according to the desires of the followers. Hundreds of years ago, it would be unthinkable to eat meat on Friday. But now it's no big deal. Nobody cares. Likewise, it used to be a horrible crime to not believe in God, punishable by death.
Other Religions
Christians can sweet-talk it all they want with "I respect the beliefs of others" and all that, but what you are basicly saying is "I believe they are going to hell, and I don't care." Every religion everywhere says the same thing. "Our religion is right, and everyone else is wrong." None of them have any more credibility than any other, thus to make such a bold assertion, especially given the fact that the world is practically saturated by different faiths already, is meaningless.
Believers talk all the time about "conversion experiences" and "miracles," but so does every other religion in the world. Why do you think people in, say, India, put spikes and stuff through their nose and tongues and such? They are not being forced to, they are merely expressing their devotion. Just as the Aztecs expressed their devotion by killing people, and the Jews by getting a circumcision. Followers of every religion are every bit as faithful in their "false" beliefs as Christians are of theirs. They too feel spiritual experiances. Do these spirtual experiances come from evil spirits? If so, why would such evil spirits command, say, Muslims to give alms to the poor?
God's "Judgement"
In Christianity, sin really doesn't matter. I doesn't matter how many people you raped, pillaged, and slaughtered, as long as you did it in the name of Jesus and remained loyal to him. Your slate is whiped clean as soon as you reach heaven. On the other hand, a Hindu or something that had devoted their life to helping the poor and feeding the needy is screwed out of that. He goes to hell. And no, we're not talking the Dante-esque "not quite as bad hell." Unless I'm mistaken, hell is hell. There are no sub-sections of it. It doesn't matter whether you are a saint or a genocidal killer, it's all about if you accept Jesus.
God is Reponsible for Everything
Now this is a simple extension of logic: If God created everything, knowing how it would turn out, then everything that exists must exist because God wants it to. Pain, suffering, evil, death- God wanted these things to be in there, for whatever reason. Even if they are by-products of His creations, He still saw them coming, and did nothing to stop them. "It's not his fault, he sees what will happen in the future, including his future inteventions?" Well... no, unless you are saying God is governed by the constrains of time, which I assume he is not. "But if he stopped X person from doing Y sin, he'd be denying free will!" God volutarily chooses to have a policy of giving people free will. He doesn't have to, nothing is forcing Him to, and in fact He could very well be going willy-nilly with our free will as we speak and we'd never know it. By the fact that God chooses to bestow free will on people, it stands to reason that any outcome of said arrangement is one He's okay with. If this guy ends up doing drugs, killing hookers, and joining the Nazi party, it's all good. "But you can't have free will without good and bad choices!" Yes you can. Lets say you have the choice to buy flowers for the sweet old lady next door, feed orphans, compliment your neighbor on their lawn, give money to charity, hire a hooker, murder your wife, play punching bag with a random kid that walks by. Obviously there are far, far more possibilities of what you can do, but we'll keep it simple for now. Even if you excluded the 3 bad choices from that list, you would still have the "free will" to do any of the 4 nice things. Evil and bad stuff is not neccesary. God could have made the universe any way he pleased. He is not bound by any law of nature or any higher being to do it that way. Therefore, bad things exist because God wants them to.
And on the topic of free will, here's another point: If angels indeed have no free will, then how was Lucifer able to rebel against God? Heck, how could he persuade a bunch of other angels to turn to his side if they didn't have the free will to do so?
The Portrayal of God in the Bible
When we hear all these things about how God is perfect, flawless, infinitely loving, all powerful, all knowing, eternal, blah blah blah... who is telling us this?
Did the author of the Bible look up and see God and say, "Wow, now that guy is pretty darn perfect! I think I'll right it down!"
Or was it more like God saying to the author, "Hey, Paul, don't forget to write about how perfect I am. Oh, and all-knowing! Yeah, that's a good one!
[right][snapback]396221[/snapback][/right]
i am too tired to address the rest of your post, but 'the problem of evil' is not a very valid argument against god. the reason we have free will/evil in the world is, in a sense, a test - we have to PROVE to god we love and respect him. in order to do so, we mustn't sin (etc). also, the evil is putting man through trials - take, for example, the entire book of job. if man simply gives up in the face of a problem, how worthy is he to get into heaven? man must persevere and prove himself to god.
the bible says god is perfect because god is perfect. the bible is god's voice, through man.
[right][snapback]396258[/snapback][/right]
We don't have to 'prove' anything, he choose to give us life and make decisions.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Sie_Sayoka on 2006-01-02 at 04:00:54
QUOTE
This deserves to be locked. It's a flame war, waiting to happen.
of course like the many generations of threads before us
QUOTE
I've participated in a lot of religious threads, and for the most part I have tried to sift through the cliched arguements against religion that never get anywhere and really get to the meat of the issue- the logical inconsistencies in religion, namely Christianity, since I'm most familiar with it.
I'd like to share with you my thoughts on this subject, in hopes that I might spark a debate and get some answers and new ideas flowing here. Feel free to point out if I am wrong in any of the assertions I make here.
Older Religions
Let me start by saying that, throughout history, no religion has ever been disproven. Ever. Unless your talking strange, wacky cults with guys luring in followers with cheap parlor tricks, no one has gone up and searched the cosmos and come back saying God X doesn't exist.
The only reason why people stopped believing in older religions is because they no longer cared for their Gods, or the rituals. No one disproved Zeus to the Greeks, and no one disproved the Gods of the Aztecs either. They simply abandoned their religion in favor of a more friendly religion that didn't involve ripping out people's hearts.
I'd like to share with you my thoughts on this subject, in hopes that I might spark a debate and get some answers and new ideas flowing here. Feel free to point out if I am wrong in any of the assertions I make here.
Older Religions
Let me start by saying that, throughout history, no religion has ever been disproven. Ever. Unless your talking strange, wacky cults with guys luring in followers with cheap parlor tricks, no one has gone up and searched the cosmos and come back saying God X doesn't exist.
The only reason why people stopped believing in older religions is because they no longer cared for their Gods, or the rituals. No one disproved Zeus to the Greeks, and no one disproved the Gods of the Aztecs either. They simply abandoned their religion in favor of a more friendly religion that didn't involve ripping out people's hearts.
well some religions died out because the people died out. anyway since the religion died out it proves that the religion was not real because if the gods did infact exist then the religion would still be alive today right?
QUOTE
And it's not just the move away from older religions, but modern day religions themselves have changed according to the desires of the followers. Hundreds of years ago, it would be unthinkable to eat meat on Friday. But now it's no big deal. Nobody cares. Likewise, it used to be a horrible crime to not believe in God, punishable by death.
yes this is true. religions have changed if you read the Bible the requirements and stuff you have to do have lightened and changed. if you believe in catholisism it has changed even more since the death of Christ through popes and saints. but society too changes. before it was common for people to die in grotesqu ways. now it is shown as crimes against humanity. religions have the right to change too right?
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Other Religions
Christians can sweet-talk it all they want with "I respect the beliefs of others" and all that, but what you are basicly saying is "I believe they are going to hell, and I don't care." Every religion everywhere says the same thing. "Our religion is right, and everyone else is wrong." None of them have any more credibility than any other, thus to make such a bold assertion, especially given the fact that the world is practically saturated by different faiths already, is meaningless.
Christians can sweet-talk it all they want with "I respect the beliefs of others" and all that, but what you are basicly saying is "I believe they are going to hell, and I don't care." Every religion everywhere says the same thing. "Our religion is right, and everyone else is wrong." None of them have any more credibility than any other, thus to make such a bold assertion, especially given the fact that the world is practically saturated by different faiths already, is meaningless.
that is why many religions want to recruit people for thier belief to save them.
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Believers talk all the time about "conversion experiences" and "miracles," but so does every other religion in the world. Why do you think people in, say, India, put spikes and stuff through their nose and tongues and such? They are not being forced to, they are merely expressing their devotion. Just as the Aztecs expressed their devotion by killing people, and the Jews by getting a circumcision. Followers of every religion are every bit as faithful in their "false" beliefs as Christians are of theirs. They too feel spiritual experiances. Do these spirtual experiances come from evil spirits? If so, why would such evil spirits command, say, Muslims to give alms to the poor?
so..... why would evil spirits make people do rituals?
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God's "Judgement"
In Christianity, sin really doesn't matter. I doesn't matter how many people you raped, pillaged, and slaughtered, as long as you did it in the name of Jesus and remained loyal to him. Your slate is whiped clean as soon as you reach heaven. On the other hand, a Hindu or something that had devoted their life to helping the poor and feeding the needy is screwed out of that. He goes to hell. And no, we're not talking the Dante-esque "not quite as bad hell." Unless I'm mistaken, hell is hell. There are no sub-sections of it. It doesn't matter whether you are a saint or a genocidal killer, it's all about if you accept Jesus.
In Christianity, sin really doesn't matter. I doesn't matter how many people you raped, pillaged, and slaughtered, as long as you did it in the name of Jesus and remained loyal to him. Your slate is whiped clean as soon as you reach heaven. On the other hand, a Hindu or something that had devoted their life to helping the poor and feeding the needy is screwed out of that. He goes to hell. And no, we're not talking the Dante-esque "not quite as bad hell." Unless I'm mistaken, hell is hell. There are no sub-sections of it. It doesn't matter whether you are a saint or a genocidal killer, it's all about if you accept Jesus.
well this is true. if you have done crimes in the past and accepted Jesus then you go to heaven. simple.
actually i believe that religion is Jainism. a sort of part Hindu religion. and i think that when you die you get reincarnated untill you reach pure elightenment or somehting. then you get to go to heaven.
hell in the Christian belief there are several levels depending on how much sins your commited. same with heaven on how good/devout you were.
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God is Reponsible for Everything
Now this is a simple extension of logic: If God created everything, knowing how it would turn out, then everything that exists must exist because God wants it to. Pain, suffering, evil, death- God wanted these things to be in there, for whatever reason. Even if they are by-products of His creations, He still saw them coming, and did nothing to stop them. "It's not his fault, he sees what will happen in the future, including his future inteventions?" Well... no, unless you are saying God is governed by the constrains of time, which I assume he is not. "But if he stopped X person from doing Y sin, he'd be denying free will!" God volutarily chooses to have a policy of giving people free will. He doesn't have to, nothing is forcing Him to, and in fact He could very well be going willy-nilly with our free will as we speak and we'd never know it. By the fact that God chooses to bestow free will on people, it stands to reason that any outcome of said arrangement is one He's okay with. If this guy ends up doing drugs, killing hookers, and joining the Nazi party, it's all good. "But you can't have free will without good and bad choices!" Yes you can. Lets say you have the choice to buy flowers for the sweet old lady next door, feed orphans, compliment your neighbor on their lawn, give money to charity, hire a hooker, murder your wife, play punching bag with a random kid that walks by. Obviously there are far, far more possibilities of what you can do, but we'll keep it simple for now. Even if you excluded the 3 bad choices from that list, you would still have the "free will" to do any of the 4 nice things. Evil and bad stuff is not neccesary. God could have made the universe any way he pleased. He is not bound by any law of nature or any higher being to do it that way. Therefore, bad things exist because God wants them to.
Now this is a simple extension of logic: If God created everything, knowing how it would turn out, then everything that exists must exist because God wants it to. Pain, suffering, evil, death- God wanted these things to be in there, for whatever reason. Even if they are by-products of His creations, He still saw them coming, and did nothing to stop them. "It's not his fault, he sees what will happen in the future, including his future inteventions?" Well... no, unless you are saying God is governed by the constrains of time, which I assume he is not. "But if he stopped X person from doing Y sin, he'd be denying free will!" God volutarily chooses to have a policy of giving people free will. He doesn't have to, nothing is forcing Him to, and in fact He could very well be going willy-nilly with our free will as we speak and we'd never know it. By the fact that God chooses to bestow free will on people, it stands to reason that any outcome of said arrangement is one He's okay with. If this guy ends up doing drugs, killing hookers, and joining the Nazi party, it's all good. "But you can't have free will without good and bad choices!" Yes you can. Lets say you have the choice to buy flowers for the sweet old lady next door, feed orphans, compliment your neighbor on their lawn, give money to charity, hire a hooker, murder your wife, play punching bag with a random kid that walks by. Obviously there are far, far more possibilities of what you can do, but we'll keep it simple for now. Even if you excluded the 3 bad choices from that list, you would still have the "free will" to do any of the 4 nice things. Evil and bad stuff is not neccesary. God could have made the universe any way he pleased. He is not bound by any law of nature or any higher being to do it that way. Therefore, bad things exist because God wants them to.
we may not comprehend God and his powers. he may be in another dimension he may not be in one but we do not understand his plan. the way we view it is black and white maybe to him it has colors.
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And on the topic of free will, here's another point: If angels indeed have no free will, then how was Lucifer able to rebel against God? Heck, how could he persuade a bunch of other angels to turn to his side if they didn't have the free will to do so?
well some Christians believe that angels did infact have freewill at one time but after lucifer corrupted them they have no free will. i however am neutral on the subject and dont really care.
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The Portrayal of God in the Bible
When we hear all these things about how God is perfect, flawless, infinitely loving, all powerful, all knowing, eternal, blah blah blah... who is telling us this?
Did the author of the Bible look up and see God and say, "Wow, now that guy is pretty darn perfect! I think I'll right it down!"
Or was it more like God saying to the author, "Hey, Paul, don't forget to write about how perfect I am. Oh, and all-knowing! Yeah, that's a good one!
When we hear all these things about how God is perfect, flawless, infinitely loving, all powerful, all knowing, eternal, blah blah blah... who is telling us this?
Did the author of the Bible look up and see God and say, "Wow, now that guy is pretty darn perfect! I think I'll right it down!"
Or was it more like God saying to the author, "Hey, Paul, don't forget to write about how perfect I am. Oh, and all-knowing! Yeah, that's a good one!
well since God is the ultimate being why not be perfect and all knowing?
why do people only point out the flaws and bad stuff about a thing. i think that everyone should point out the good and bad sides of stuff such as..... religion
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Syphon on 2006-01-02 at 11:41:42
I don't know about the Christians you've been talking to but I believe firmly in there are some things you shouldn't know about a man. How much they weigh, how tall they are, fetishes and their belief. SO I could frankly care less about other's believes. (I respect them, unless they go around saying things like "PRAISE MUTOMBO!" Real loudly.)
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Dr.Shotgun on 2006-01-02 at 14:27:03
Not every religion in the world rejects others. Islam respects the validity of Judaism and Christianity, and some Eastern religions/philosophies, such as Buddhism, believe that God can be interpreted many different ways.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Centreri on 2006-01-02 at 14:39:05
That part about religions never respecting other religions. Its all because if you respect others you cannot be truly devoted to your own. If you believe with all your heart that your religion is the correct one, its all true, then its impossible to respect any other religion.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by titus on 2006-01-02 at 14:56:49
QUOTE(Mp)Shorty @ Jan 1 2006, 11:56 PM)
And you always fuel it, Don't post here if you think it'll be flame, or better yet, don't spam here.
We don't have to 'prove' anything, he choose to give us life and make decisions.
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We don't have to 'prove' anything, he choose to give us life and make decisions.
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(kellimus, don't start crapping on threads because you can't contribute to the discussion. if you have nothing worthwhile to say, don't say it, and let us discuss)
1- but we do! our purpose on earth is to GLORIFY GOD - not to 'do good deeds to get into heaven'; such a purpose is superificial and selfish. to glorify god? that's selfless and, in the end, what we are to do (because of his perfection and that he created us, etc). how does on do that? one gets into heaven, by respecting god's maxims and creeds and laws and following the way of jesus (his son). if one simply turns away from god in the face of adversity, one is not worthy/ready for heaven, and one does not glorify god. that is why there is evil on earth (again, see the entire book of job for an expanded argument)
2- most religion is inherently dogmatic/exlcusivist, in the sense that, if you follow religion B, you most likely won't get into religion A's heaven. an example of this would be christianity (and islam and judaism - while they respect the other religions, they're still technically 'wrong' and will not get you to heaven). the only possible exceptions i can think of would be hinduism and buddhism, both of which use a sort of umbrella belief - other religions are simply different facets to the same diamond and what not.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Kow on 2006-01-02 at 20:43:12
QUOTE(atlass @ Jan 2 2006, 01:04 AM)
And on the topic of free will, here's another point: If angels indeed have no free will, then how was Lucifer able to rebel against God? Heck, how could he persuade a bunch of other angels to turn to his side if they didn't have the free will to do so?
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They originally did, but then after Lucifer's rebellion, God made them not.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by re_casper on 2006-01-02 at 21:02:43
QUOTE(Kow @ Jan 2 2006, 05:43 PM)
They originally did, but then after Lucifer's rebellion, God made them not.
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I have to disagree. All angels have free will, all demons do not.
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When we hear all these things about how God is perfect, flawless, infinitely loving, all powerful, all knowing, eternal, blah blah blah... who is telling us this?
Did the author of the Bible look up and see God and say, "Wow, now that guy is pretty darn perfect! I think I'll right it down!"
Or was it more like God saying to the author, "Hey, Paul, don't forget to write about how perfect I am. Oh, and all-knowing! Yeah, that's a good one!
Did the author of the Bible look up and see God and say, "Wow, now that guy is pretty darn perfect! I think I'll right it down!"
Or was it more like God saying to the author, "Hey, Paul, don't forget to write about how perfect I am. Oh, and all-knowing! Yeah, that's a good one!
Ill do this. Ok If you read the Bible, it actually says that it is not written by man, but through the Holy Spirit, men (mostly men, im sorry feminists). That is backed up by every prophet. Such as: If I am a prophet i must tell you every single word for word what God wanted me to tell you... cuz... well... think of it... if I dont then, whatever happens was not in line with God, (as in it was not God's will but he knows.) I would also advise not to try figuring God out... it hurts the head... but it is just advice... You dont have to take it you know...
Report, edit, etc...Posted by lonely_duck on 2006-01-02 at 21:03:11
(being devil's adovocate) that brings up even more questions kow.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Loser_Musician on 2006-01-02 at 21:03:32
Burden of proof is on the religious side, and not enough evidence has been provided. (This alone gives a good enough reason for person to be an atheist)
God's plan is not something a supreme being would come up with. It's too stupid.
God has no reason to hide what so ever. It showing it's self would not in almost any way interfere with free will.
God also has no motive what so ever. Except for us to love him, which fully explains why he would spend 6 straight days, possibly being a million years for a day, working constantly, as well as continue to judge EVERYONE that dies, just so people can love him. News flash - People don't work at McDonald's so their hamburgers will love them.
Religion effects politics and social issues are an extreme level. Such as some of the laws we all have to follow.
Religions are full of double standards and large assumptions.
Religion can greatly divide people.
The morals the bible provides are common law. "Don't kill, don't steal." no shiz. But slavery is ok according to some.
Religion changes through time. Which is heresy. What truly happened in the past never changes.
Spanish inquisition. Need I say more.
Martin luther doing the same thing as spanish inquisition after forming his own church; hypocrite.
All the cursades, including both of the children's crusades.
And this is not even half of it.
Now time for the defence of religion. I wiil try not to comment on them all, but I will leave a * next to the ones I disagree with. And ** for that ones that must be a joke.
God has the power to do anything. He created everything, including himself.*
You can't prove religion wrong.
We can't have came from evolution because God created us. We are too complicated to have just came from no where. Some thing a billion times more complicated than us that came from no where must've created us. (no sarcasm)**
It's all about faith. (Exactly, cause that's all you really got)
The bible is full of great morals.*
Free will and divine plan can work together.*
Atheists are evil, unmmoral people. They follow the sinful ways of the serpent.**
People need something to believe in. Religion doesn't hurt anyone. Let people believe in what they want. It's not external.*
The burden of proof is on the atheist side.*
Religion HAS proven it's self right thousands of years ago. (Exactly, THOUSANDS of years ago to ignorant illiterate peasants)
Almost all of those we have discussed already on SEN. I can go on for a few more, but this post is long enough. I have done more than enough debates to come to this conclusion: religion is a joke.
God's plan is not something a supreme being would come up with. It's too stupid.
God has no reason to hide what so ever. It showing it's self would not in almost any way interfere with free will.
God also has no motive what so ever. Except for us to love him, which fully explains why he would spend 6 straight days, possibly being a million years for a day, working constantly, as well as continue to judge EVERYONE that dies, just so people can love him. News flash - People don't work at McDonald's so their hamburgers will love them.
Religion effects politics and social issues are an extreme level. Such as some of the laws we all have to follow.
Religions are full of double standards and large assumptions.
Religion can greatly divide people.
The morals the bible provides are common law. "Don't kill, don't steal." no shiz. But slavery is ok according to some.
Religion changes through time. Which is heresy. What truly happened in the past never changes.
Spanish inquisition. Need I say more.
Martin luther doing the same thing as spanish inquisition after forming his own church; hypocrite.
All the cursades, including both of the children's crusades.
And this is not even half of it.
Now time for the defence of religion. I wiil try not to comment on them all, but I will leave a * next to the ones I disagree with. And ** for that ones that must be a joke.
God has the power to do anything. He created everything, including himself.*
You can't prove religion wrong.
We can't have came from evolution because God created us. We are too complicated to have just came from no where. Some thing a billion times more complicated than us that came from no where must've created us. (no sarcasm)**
It's all about faith. (Exactly, cause that's all you really got)
The bible is full of great morals.*
Free will and divine plan can work together.*
Atheists are evil, unmmoral people. They follow the sinful ways of the serpent.**
People need something to believe in. Religion doesn't hurt anyone. Let people believe in what they want. It's not external.*
The burden of proof is on the atheist side.*
Religion HAS proven it's self right thousands of years ago. (Exactly, THOUSANDS of years ago to ignorant illiterate peasants)
Almost all of those we have discussed already on SEN. I can go on for a few more, but this post is long enough. I have done more than enough debates to come to this conclusion: religion is a joke.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by re_casper on 2006-01-02 at 21:13:52
QUOTE(Loser_Musician @ Jan 2 2006, 06:03 PM)
And this is not even half of it.
Now time for the defence of religion. I wiil try not to comment on them all, but I will leave a * next to the ones I disagree with. And ** for that ones that must be a joke.
God has the power to do anything. He created everything, including himself.*
You can't prove religion wrong.
Atheists are evil, unmmoral people. They follow the sinful ways of the serpent.**
Almost all of those we have discussed already on SEN. I can go on for a few more, but this post is long enough. I have done enough debates to come to this conclusion: religion is a joke.
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Now time for the defence of religion. I wiil try not to comment on them all, but I will leave a * next to the ones I disagree with. And ** for that ones that must be a joke.
God has the power to do anything. He created everything, including himself.*
You can't prove religion wrong.
Atheists are evil, unmmoral people. They follow the sinful ways of the serpent.**
Almost all of those we have discussed already on SEN. I can go on for a few more, but this post is long enough. I have done enough debates to come to this conclusion: religion is a joke.
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lets see... the Bible doesnt say how God created himself or What happened... So lets see, you cannot state that Christians/Atheists correctly say that God created himself because there is no proof of God creating himself either... but we know that God is all powerful... but it wouldnt matter would it?
You can prove religeon wrong... Religeon: I believe that burning people and sacrificing them to demons and eating them after is cool <--- umm... something is wrong there... terribly wrong... (Some people still believe that...)
Atheists are immoral... who said that? (just wondering)
Yes we have discussed everything that you have said...
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Loser_Musician on 2006-01-02 at 21:17:23
QUOTE(re_casper @ Jan 2 2006, 09:13 PM)
lets see... the Bible doesnt say how God created himself or What happened... So lets see, you cannot state that Christians/Atheists correctly say that God created himself because there is no proof of God creating himself either... but we know that God is all powerful... but it wouldnt matter would it?
Skippedeedoo
Atheists are immoral... who said that? (just wondering)
Yes we have discussed everything that you have said...
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Skippedeedoo
Atheists are immoral... who said that? (just wondering)
Yes we have discussed everything that you have said...
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I was giving some of the defence I've heard over the years. Including ones in real life. I've ran into many different kinds of christians down here in florida.
The only cool religious person on this entire forum, is mill army. That's really about it.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by re_casper on 2006-01-02 at 21:20:31
QUOTE(Loser_Musician @ Jan 2 2006, 06:17 PM)
I was giving some of the defence I've heard over the years. Including ones in real life. I've ran into many different kinds of christians down here in florida.
The only cool religious person on this entire forum, is mill army. That's really about it.
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The only cool religious person on this entire forum, is mill army. That's really about it.
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Wait.. so none of the people you hear these defences from give any back up? odd...
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Loser_Musician on 2006-01-02 at 21:23:43
QUOTE(re_casper @ Jan 2 2006, 09:20 PM)
Wait.. so none of the people you hear these defences from give any back up? odd...
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Wait, do you think no one believes in some of those religious defences? Cause trust me, some do.
Still kind of confused on what you mean by back up. You mean supporting evidence? In most cases, no, not really.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Kashmir on 2006-01-03 at 16:16:00
Loser_musician owned this thread.
I am an athiest. I believe relgion is a joke and that God was made up to conrl the masses. Its effective, produtive (in some cases), and profitable. How could god stand by while innocent people in Salem and the Spanish Inquisition were killed after being forced to confess to a sin they did not commit? How could he allow the slaughter of helpless thousands in his name. As LM said, whats his motive? Why would he work his ass off just for us to love him?
This is why Libertarian Socialism is best.... you have no authority... (i.e. government/God)
I am an athiest. I believe relgion is a joke and that God was made up to conrl the masses. Its effective, produtive (in some cases), and profitable. How could god stand by while innocent people in Salem and the Spanish Inquisition were killed after being forced to confess to a sin they did not commit? How could he allow the slaughter of helpless thousands in his name. As LM said, whats his motive? Why would he work his ass off just for us to love him?
This is why Libertarian Socialism is best.... you have no authority... (i.e. government/God)
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Felagund on 2006-01-03 at 16:58:22
QUOTE
Dr. Laura Schlessinger is a radio personality who dispenses advice to people who call in to her radio show. Recently, she said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22 and cannot be condoned under any circumstance. The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned by a east coast resident, which was posted on the Internet. It's funny, as well as informative:
Dear Dr. Laura:
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them:
When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19- 24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?
I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
Your devoted fan,
Jim
Dear Dr. Laura:
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them:
When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19- 24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?
I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
Your devoted fan,
Jim
From here.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Staredit.Net Essence on 2006-01-03 at 17:16:41
QUOTE(titus @ Jan 2 2006, 12:56 PM)
(kellimus, don't start crapping on threads because you can't contribute to the discussion. if you have nothing worthwhile to say, don't say it, and let us discuss)
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I said that, because i'm not going to get into an endless debate about who is right, and who is wrong. Threads like this are endless spam/flame wars.
So.. In my opinion, it should be locked.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Kow on 2006-01-03 at 17:23:14
QUOTE(Loser_Musician @ Jan 2 2006, 09:03 PM)
But slavery is ok according to some.
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Slavery itself is all right, but the mistreatment of the slaves is bad.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Neiji on 2006-01-03 at 17:36:35
QUOTE
God also has no motive what so ever. Except for us to love him, which fully explains why he would spend 6 straight days, possibly being a million years for a day, working constantly, as well as continue to judge EVERYONE that dies, just so people can love him. News flash - People don't work at McDonald's so their hamburgers will love them.
Your mother wouldn't sacrifice herself for me? I know my mother would. Because of love? yes.
QUOTE
How could god stand by while innocent people in Salem and the Spanish Inquisition were killed after being forced to confess to a sin they did not commit
Define innocent. Sinless? Is anybody really sinless? Innocent right now is your opinion about people.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by iamacow on 2006-01-03 at 18:45:14
Kellimus is entirely correct in my opinion. There is no answer to this argument. This stuff just goes on for pages and pages.
"Burden of proof is on the religious side, and not enough evidence has been provided. (This alone gives a good enough reason for person to be an atheist)"
-I feel like the burden of proof should be on both sides. If you are saying there isn't a god, prove to me that that is true. I can use evidence supporting god at the time time, and we won't have a useless argument on our hands.
"Loser_musician owned this thread."
-"We had better stop talking because someone just made a post with their opinion, which agrees with mine, and is clearly right!"
"I am an athiest. I believe relgion is a joke and that God was made up to conrl the masses. Its effective, produtive (in some cases), and profitable."
- There is no doubt that religion has been used in this manner. Religion is also a great unifying force in some cases. If every can have faith in something, it can be a thing to fill a hole in anyone's heart and mind. It can heal pain cause by lost loved ones and troubles all throughout life.
Anyway, many have died due to the belief that religion is wrong.
"I freed Germany from the stupid and degrading fallacies of conscience and morality.... We will train young people before whom the world will tremble. I want young people capable of violence--imperious, relentless and cruel."
Hitler is a good example, though his atheism is questionable. He said many things to win the people.
"Burden of proof is on the religious side, and not enough evidence has been provided. (This alone gives a good enough reason for person to be an atheist)"
-I feel like the burden of proof should be on both sides. If you are saying there isn't a god, prove to me that that is true. I can use evidence supporting god at the time time, and we won't have a useless argument on our hands.
"Loser_musician owned this thread."
-"We had better stop talking because someone just made a post with their opinion, which agrees with mine, and is clearly right!"
"I am an athiest. I believe relgion is a joke and that God was made up to conrl the masses. Its effective, produtive (in some cases), and profitable."
- There is no doubt that religion has been used in this manner. Religion is also a great unifying force in some cases. If every can have faith in something, it can be a thing to fill a hole in anyone's heart and mind. It can heal pain cause by lost loved ones and troubles all throughout life.
Anyway, many have died due to the belief that religion is wrong.
"I freed Germany from the stupid and degrading fallacies of conscience and morality.... We will train young people before whom the world will tremble. I want young people capable of violence--imperious, relentless and cruel."
Hitler is a good example, though his atheism is questionable. He said many things to win the people.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Loser_Musician on 2006-01-04 at 19:41:59
QUOTE(Kow @ Jan 3 2006, 05:23 PM)
Slavery itself is all right, but the mistreatment of the slaves is bad.
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Kell is right that this will never end. Religious side will over rationalize it's self over and over again. Throwing in new stupid theories to back up their old stupid claims. Cause honestly, no one likes to be wrong.
In a controversial debate that involves deep thinking, such as this one, the losing side doesn't aim for victory. They aim for a tie.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Neiji on 2006-01-04 at 19:47:27
QUOTE
Tell me if I'm Wrong Here
You're wrong. Problem Solved. Please lock...