Report, edit, etc...Posted by Shapechanger on 2006-02-08 at 22:39:56
Today I played a lengthy 2 hour game, which I lost. The thing is, I should have won and I cant figure out how I lost. Note I do not have the expansion, I was undead and he was Night Elf, and the game was 1v1.
I started by grinding my hero, like every game, and our heroes crossed paths. We succesfully killed each other's heroes in the encounter. In any case, I went straight up the tech tree, all the time building many sub-bases around gold mines elsewhere. I had all three heroes out as fast as possible, and went for my favorite combo. Six Abombinations up front, four necros in back, and 2 meat wagons full on corpses at the far back. The strategy is to use the meat wagons to create massive amounts of skeletons.
The thing I dont understand is this. All he did was mass archers and grind his twi heroes. The map had ten gold mines, I controlled 6 and he 4. I mined every gold mine to under 2000 gold and built as many 12 groups of the above combo as I could. With three such combinations ready, he attacked with nothing more than massive amounts of archers, a level 8 Moon Priestess, and a level 7 Demon Hunter. He won, and proceeded to demolish my base. From there I tried desperately to reestablish a main base, but he destroyed any progress I made and eventually won.
What I simply dont understand is how he beat me with nothing but archers and heroes. I had one of the best combos in the game, and he still manages to beat me? I also had about twice as much gold, all of which I spent. My Dreadlord was level 3, my Deathknight 5, and my Lich 7 by the end of the game. I turned every zig into a tower, and nearing the end I got myself 4 frost wyrms. Nothing seemed to work againt this weak, looking foe.
Was it the Moon Priestess's Trueshot Aura?
Maybe it was because I was reckless with my heroes? (Each died at least thrice)
Maybe this combo just really isnt as good as I thought?
I seek help! I have yet to win a WC3 Game!
I started by grinding my hero, like every game, and our heroes crossed paths. We succesfully killed each other's heroes in the encounter. In any case, I went straight up the tech tree, all the time building many sub-bases around gold mines elsewhere. I had all three heroes out as fast as possible, and went for my favorite combo. Six Abombinations up front, four necros in back, and 2 meat wagons full on corpses at the far back. The strategy is to use the meat wagons to create massive amounts of skeletons.
The thing I dont understand is this. All he did was mass archers and grind his twi heroes. The map had ten gold mines, I controlled 6 and he 4. I mined every gold mine to under 2000 gold and built as many 12 groups of the above combo as I could. With three such combinations ready, he attacked with nothing more than massive amounts of archers, a level 8 Moon Priestess, and a level 7 Demon Hunter. He won, and proceeded to demolish my base. From there I tried desperately to reestablish a main base, but he destroyed any progress I made and eventually won.
What I simply dont understand is how he beat me with nothing but archers and heroes. I had one of the best combos in the game, and he still manages to beat me? I also had about twice as much gold, all of which I spent. My Dreadlord was level 3, my Deathknight 5, and my Lich 7 by the end of the game. I turned every zig into a tower, and nearing the end I got myself 4 frost wyrms. Nothing seemed to work againt this weak, looking foe.
Was it the Moon Priestess's Trueshot Aura?
Maybe it was because I was reckless with my heroes? (Each died at least thrice)
Maybe this combo just really isnt as good as I thought?
I seek help! I have yet to win a WC3 Game!
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Shadow-Killa_04 on 2006-02-08 at 23:22:34
This is very simple. None of the undead heroes or regular guys have stunning spell besides the dreadlords ultimate but your dreadlord wasn't 6. Starfall iis the priestess's level 6 ultimate. Its the most ownage spell in the game. The only was to stop it is if the priestess gets stunned somehow or dies.
Starfall does 50 dammage per hit to every single of the enemies dude in a large area. It does this for like 30 seconds so it does probably a total of 500 per unit. This would own your necromances and your skeletons. The trueshot aura currtenlly helped in a all archer army.
I personaly always get the priestess if I'm going against mainly undead for that reason.
That combo is okish, it needs to be improved. Get some crypt fiends, they're really good antiair and ranged.
I personaly win about 6/10 wc3 melee games. I don't play solo though. I really like wc3 melee. I play random.
Starfall does 50 dammage per hit to every single of the enemies dude in a large area. It does this for like 30 seconds so it does probably a total of 500 per unit. This would own your necromances and your skeletons. The trueshot aura currtenlly helped in a all archer army.
I personaly always get the priestess if I'm going against mainly undead for that reason.
That combo is okish, it needs to be improved. Get some crypt fiends, they're really good antiair and ranged.
I personaly win about 6/10 wc3 melee games. I don't play solo though. I really like wc3 melee. I play random.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Snipe on 2006-02-08 at 23:24:27
ooo, i love night elf 
. To bad i don't have war 3 anymore. Good advice though.. Once i buy it i will take it into consideration ;P.
. To bad i don't have war 3 anymore. Good advice though.. Once i buy it i will take it into consideration ;P.Report, edit, etc...Posted by Revelade on 2006-02-08 at 23:32:20
This is a unique game I have never seen. Was this in ladder by chance?
Before I start, I'll tell you a bit about myself.
I've been playing WC3 since it came out years ago and my main, lucky for you, is undead. I've been on ladder once, but it decayed. I usually play 2v2 RT, but sometimes I play solo. I don't like the custom games in WC3, because they feel very similar as opposed to bounds and defenses in SC.
Anyway, from what I can tell, it seems like a big map. That means don't harass.
Speed is an important factor in WC3. That's why DK is the best hero to use as UD.
Tech and expand. At tier 2, get shades and scout his army and his bases.
Once you see he's getting mass archers, you have to think, what counters them?
In WC3, USUALLY melee>ranged, so you were on the right track with necromancers and wagons.
You should have made 1 wagon, 8 necromancers and 2 statues. That's your army. It's only 26 food however. For your heroes, you should get the DK obviously, along with the DL for his aura and sleep. Equip your heroes with 3 things, obviously a teleport, then a scroll of defense and sacrificial skull (makes blight).
When you fight, turn one statue to health and one to mana. Then you move all necromancers next to the wagon and autocast skeletons. Then you use a scroll of protection. Send these losers and right UNDER the archers, use your sac skull (blight).
For the DH, you should use cripple or sleep him.
For the PotM, SLEEP her, especially if she is using starfall.
The amount of skeletons should overwhelm the archers.
The great thing about this stat is that it can be used in pretty much every matchup.
Oh, if you want my account, I'll give it to you via PM.
Before I start, I'll tell you a bit about myself.
I've been playing WC3 since it came out years ago and my main, lucky for you, is undead. I've been on ladder once, but it decayed. I usually play 2v2 RT, but sometimes I play solo. I don't like the custom games in WC3, because they feel very similar as opposed to bounds and defenses in SC.
Anyway, from what I can tell, it seems like a big map. That means don't harass.
Speed is an important factor in WC3. That's why DK is the best hero to use as UD.
Tech and expand. At tier 2, get shades and scout his army and his bases.
Once you see he's getting mass archers, you have to think, what counters them?
In WC3, USUALLY melee>ranged, so you were on the right track with necromancers and wagons.
You should have made 1 wagon, 8 necromancers and 2 statues. That's your army. It's only 26 food however. For your heroes, you should get the DK obviously, along with the DL for his aura and sleep. Equip your heroes with 3 things, obviously a teleport, then a scroll of defense and sacrificial skull (makes blight).
When you fight, turn one statue to health and one to mana. Then you move all necromancers next to the wagon and autocast skeletons. Then you use a scroll of protection. Send these losers and right UNDER the archers, use your sac skull (blight).
For the DH, you should use cripple or sleep him.
For the PotM, SLEEP her, especially if she is using starfall.
The amount of skeletons should overwhelm the archers.
The great thing about this stat is that it can be used in pretty much every matchup.
Oh, if you want my account, I'll give it to you via PM.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Shapechanger on 2006-02-08 at 23:33:29
Yes that's true. Since each individual Skeleton is weak, an AoE spell like that would tear right through them....
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Shadow-Killa_04 on 2006-02-08 at 23:33:45
First of all, he doesnt have expansion so he can't get stats. I think he was more curious what went wrong in that game rather than a whole build order.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Shapechanger on 2006-02-08 at 23:35:04
To Revelade:
QUOTE
Note I do not have the expansion,
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Shadow-Killa_04 on 2006-02-08 at 23:38:44
O ya, another thing that probably didn't help you is the demon hunters immolation. 20 dammage per second to everything surrounding would kill skeletons fairly easily as well.
ADDITION:
O shoot, forgot, the dreadlord has sleep. This would cancel the priestess ultimate.
ADDITION:
O shoot, forgot, the dreadlord has sleep. This would cancel the priestess ultimate.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Shapechanger on 2006-02-08 at 23:39:44
What do you suggest overall? I know all the units/ popular tactics of every race except the humans. What's the best race and strategy in your opinion?
ADDITION:
Yeah, I never considered the Priestess's Ultimate a threat at the time, and put two points into Vamp Aura and one into Carrion.
EDIT: I hate being Night Elf, though, because of slow lumber collection and slow gold mine capture.
ADDITION:
Yeah, I never considered the Priestess's Ultimate a threat at the time, and put two points into Vamp Aura and one into Carrion.
EDIT: I hate being Night Elf, though, because of slow lumber collection and slow gold mine capture.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Shadow-Killa_04 on 2006-02-08 at 23:47:11
As I said I tend to play team, 3v3 specificly, so I don't need to get a well rounded army. I rely on me and my team to do that.
I personaly don't care for one race over the other. I'll just do undead because thats your favorite.
I'd get 2 or 3 heroes (depending what I feel like) and get them to high levels obviously.
2 or 3 abdomitions just for melee. They aren't that needed unless your going against taurens or someone who was good with casters. Pulverize and any form of dispell magic owns skeletons. Your abdominitons will only be need for the first 20 seconds of the battle just to take dammage.
4 or so necromancers for their skeletons.
I'd probably fill the rest with crypt fiends.
Some additional units you could have are:
2 or 3 banshees - Use their possesion (Mind control more or less) and take over their stronger units, prefereably melee
Meat wagons - Fairly obvious
If the person is going mass air I'd get some gargolyes, otherwise I wouldn't.
Work your way up the tech tree and later game get frost wyrms. However, make sure you also have like 5 or so crypt fiends with them otherwise they will get owned by anti-air such as hippogryphs annd gargoyles.
The night elfs have the worst early game lumber harvesting becuase it is the slowest. However, its the best later game because your wisps don't have to walk and with all the trees cut down, they have to walk far.
Gold mine capture is an extra 30 seconds. If you plan ahead though, you can save time. You plant the tree slightly outside of tha area where you gonna expand. When you get around to it you kill the creeps there and then you walk your tree the rest of the way in.
Most people think that carrion swarm is pretty bad. However, you don't need to get 3 levels of sleep either. I personaly get vampuric first and get that maxed asap. I get 1 level of sleep. Then I max carrion swarm.
I personaly don't care for one race over the other. I'll just do undead because thats your favorite.
I'd get 2 or 3 heroes (depending what I feel like) and get them to high levels obviously.
2 or 3 abdomitions just for melee. They aren't that needed unless your going against taurens or someone who was good with casters. Pulverize and any form of dispell magic owns skeletons. Your abdominitons will only be need for the first 20 seconds of the battle just to take dammage.
4 or so necromancers for their skeletons.
I'd probably fill the rest with crypt fiends.
Some additional units you could have are:
2 or 3 banshees - Use their possesion (Mind control more or less) and take over their stronger units, prefereably melee
Meat wagons - Fairly obvious
If the person is going mass air I'd get some gargolyes, otherwise I wouldn't.
Work your way up the tech tree and later game get frost wyrms. However, make sure you also have like 5 or so crypt fiends with them otherwise they will get owned by anti-air such as hippogryphs annd gargoyles.
The night elfs have the worst early game lumber harvesting becuase it is the slowest. However, its the best later game because your wisps don't have to walk and with all the trees cut down, they have to walk far.
Gold mine capture is an extra 30 seconds. If you plan ahead though, you can save time. You plant the tree slightly outside of tha area where you gonna expand. When you get around to it you kill the creeps there and then you walk your tree the rest of the way in.
Most people think that carrion swarm is pretty bad. However, you don't need to get 3 levels of sleep either. I personaly get vampuric first and get that maxed asap. I get 1 level of sleep. Then I max carrion swarm.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Revelade on 2006-02-09 at 03:57:20
Ah, I seem to have missed that part.
Okay, instead of wagons or stats, here's what you could do:
HEROES:
- DK, DL
SKILLS:
- DK: Death Coil/Unholy Aura
- DL: Vampiric Aura/Sleep
ITEMS:
- Scroll of protection (as many as you can)
BUILDINGS:
- 2 temples, 1 crypt, graveyard
UNITS:
- ghouls + necros
UPGRADES:
- necromancer trainings, skeletal longivety, ghoul frenzy
- melee armor +1, melee attack +1
LOGIC: lower melee should beat ranged in WC3:RoC. AoE would also work here, but Carrion Swarm won't be worth allowing them to Starfall. Wagons do AoE, but they can be easily targeted by the heroes or archers. Go for dual aura, frenzy ghouls to take the damage, and necros to make skeletons out of their corpses. Ghouls have the highest DPS in the undead army, so you can take them out fast. Aboms shouldn't be used because you need more bodies to make skeletons.
Okay, instead of wagons or stats, here's what you could do:
HEROES:
- DK, DL
SKILLS:
- DK: Death Coil/Unholy Aura
- DL: Vampiric Aura/Sleep
ITEMS:
- Scroll of protection (as many as you can)
BUILDINGS:
- 2 temples, 1 crypt, graveyard
UNITS:
- ghouls + necros
UPGRADES:
- necromancer trainings, skeletal longivety, ghoul frenzy
- melee armor +1, melee attack +1
LOGIC: lower melee should beat ranged in WC3:RoC. AoE would also work here, but Carrion Swarm won't be worth allowing them to Starfall. Wagons do AoE, but they can be easily targeted by the heroes or archers. Go for dual aura, frenzy ghouls to take the damage, and necros to make skeletons out of their corpses. Ghouls have the highest DPS in the undead army, so you can take them out fast. Aboms shouldn't be used because you need more bodies to make skeletons.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Shapechanger on 2006-02-09 at 07:56:27
Well usually two full Meat Wagons is plenty of corpses, because I think each Necro can only cast it three times before they run out of mana. Keyword think.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Revelade on 2006-02-09 at 20:32:46
Oh, don't be afraid to post what you think. I respect your opinion as I would of anybody else.
The way I see it, if you had two meat wagons, you need to make a slaughterhouse. Then you'd have to find the corpses, whether it's in the graveyard or from creeps. That means you'd have to lug these wagons everywhere.
I guess wagons could work, but ghouls are cheaper and can take more hits and are easier to use. If you do find lots of corpses, wagons would probably be the better choice.
The way I see it, if you had two meat wagons, you need to make a slaughterhouse. Then you'd have to find the corpses, whether it's in the graveyard or from creeps. That means you'd have to lug these wagons everywhere.
I guess wagons could work, but ghouls are cheaper and can take more hits and are easier to use. If you do find lots of corpses, wagons would probably be the better choice.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Shadow-Killa_04 on 2006-02-10 at 01:01:59
The mass ghoul thing is fine. Obviously you'd need alittle more variation than just necros and ghouls but I'm you could put whatever you want there. I don't know if I completely agree with him with the wagons. It wouldn't be hard to get 8 corpses just from the graveyard or creeps. Just find something that works.