Report, edit, etc...Posted by Veta on 2006-04-12 at 19:06:01
I added Hyper triggers to one of my maps a week ago and I noticed every time I played the version with Hyper Triggers... the entire game would LAG... BAD. Until the apparent "lagger" would be dropped. When playing a version with out Hypers; people who lagged before would not lag at all, and vice versa.
I took out the Hypers and the map no longer lagged. Does anyone know what might be the sorce of this "Hyper Lag" or have any remedies?
I took out the Hypers and the map no longer lagged. Does anyone know what might be the sorce of this "Hyper Lag" or have any remedies?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by BeeR_KeG on 2006-04-12 at 19:10:23
From my first thoughts, I would guess that you have a trigger that is always running continously. With Hyper Triggers, this trigger would run 12 more times per second, causing lag. It could be more than one trigger.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Veta on 2006-04-12 at 19:38:42
QUOTE(BeeR_KeG @ Apr 12 2006, 05:10 PM)
From my first thoughts, I would guess that you have a trigger that is always running continously. With Hyper Triggers, this trigger would run 12 more times per second, causing lag. It could be more than one trigger.
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I have a quite a few..
Would an Anti-BS trigger cause lag?
(Running ally/vis/unally scripts?)
Also.. keep in mind that when a certain player (the lagger) is dropped it works fine. The lagger is a different person almost every time.
And: Do you know what the Run Time Error: 9 Subscript error is caused by... because I keep trying to change two colors in my briefing and it gives me an error. I hate StarForge and SCMDraft can't do briefings all that well.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by BeeR_KeG on 2006-04-12 at 20:01:34
If it's a different person every time, try to check if it's the same player. If it's the same player, check if they have any player specific triggers that may cause it.
If the forces are random everytime, then you need to see what specific characteristics belong to that player, so that you may recognize it in triggers.
If the forces are random everytime, then you need to see what specific characteristics belong to that player, so that you may recognize it in triggers.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Veta on 2006-04-12 at 20:03:33
I thought about the player specifics, don't humor me. 
It's a person who has a weaker connection than the rest usually. Or at least a worse computer, but it's always someone at least.
Edit: And they don't lag on versions with out the Hyper triggers.
But do you know if Anti-BS triggers would cause it.. I mean they're on Laser Tag and that doesn't lag.
It's a person who has a weaker connection than the rest usually. Or at least a worse computer, but it's always someone at least.
Edit: And they don't lag on versions with out the Hyper triggers.
But do you know if Anti-BS triggers would cause it.. I mean they're on Laser Tag and that doesn't lag.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by BeeR_KeG on 2006-04-12 at 21:10:54
I'm not quite sure you fully understood me. By Players I was meaning like Player 1, Player 2 etc.., the exact same Players that you see in your editor, not Bill, Bob and Moose.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Kupo on 2006-04-12 at 21:19:43
Maybe because the triggers are checked more often instead of crappy 12 seconds later.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Veta on 2006-04-12 at 21:19:55
I do understand, AND I TOLD YOU;
PLAYERS IN THE GAME with weak connections tend to be the laggers. In other games these same players are fine.
PLAYERS IN THE EDITOR are fine. I would have noticed... I'm not an idiot. I do actually check things before asking for advice on any matter.
So next time, Be sure.
In Response to Kupo: Yes that's why... but no one knows what kind of trigger might cause this lag. Nor does anyone realize how strange it is that once the "weak connection" is dropped the game plays fine. No Lag. However, if the weak player stays in the game it lags horribly. I have tested this for a while and just didn't include Hypers after I got frustrated.
PLAYERS IN THE GAME with weak connections tend to be the laggers. In other games these same players are fine.
PLAYERS IN THE EDITOR are fine. I would have noticed... I'm not an idiot. I do actually check things before asking for advice on any matter.
So next time, Be sure.
In Response to Kupo: Yes that's why... but no one knows what kind of trigger might cause this lag. Nor does anyone realize how strange it is that once the "weak connection" is dropped the game plays fine. No Lag. However, if the weak player stays in the game it lags horribly. I have tested this for a while and just didn't include Hypers after I got frustrated.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by BeeR_KeG on 2006-04-12 at 21:32:51
Have you tried having somebody host the game other than yourself and recieved the same results?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Veta on 2006-04-12 at 21:59:40
QUOTE(BeeR_KeG @ Apr 12 2006, 07:32 PM)
Have you tried having somebody host the game other than yourself and recieved the same results?
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Yes...
I know it's a trigger I just need to know what kind of triggers cause Ultra lag.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Noober on 2006-04-12 at 22:49:48
Could it be creating and killing lots of units? I kinda lag when I do that with hypers, even if I'm playing by myself.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Veta on 2006-04-12 at 23:12:41
I know that those kinds of triggers would lag... after I searched my entire trigger DB; I noticed that the only thing that might really cause the lag are DC timers, but why would they lag?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Zeratul_101 on 2006-04-13 at 00:23:04
i've never heard of this problem before, but i would think that the triggers that always ahve their conditions met are the problem. like anti-bs triggers. try posting the triggers that are like this.
have you noticed if its at a certain point in the game that it lags?
have you noticed if its at a certain point in the game that it lags?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by (U)Bolt_Head on 2006-04-13 at 12:00:00
Hyper triggers do not cause lag.
The cause of the lag is other triggers that are now fireing at a much faster rate. Most always it is something 'physicial' happening on the map with your units.
The cause of the lag is other triggers that are now fireing at a much faster rate. Most always it is something 'physicial' happening on the map with your units.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by AngeL) on 2006-04-13 at 14:28:47
the cause of lag is a trigger firing continuosly, for example in a special forces HT would cause lag, for the "HEAL" trigger, that fires contonuosly
Report, edit, etc...Posted by (U)Bolt_Head on 2006-04-13 at 15:24:12
I doubt a simple Set HP trigger would cause any lag. There are no graphics to be manipulated.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by AngeL) on 2006-04-13 at 15:26:03
i edited a special forces and it causes lag... maybe its because there are a lot of AI scripts...
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Veta on 2006-04-13 at 17:49:10
QUOTE((U)Bolt_Head @ Apr 13 2006, 09:59 AM)
Hyper triggers do not cause lag.
The cause of the lag is other triggers that are now fireing at a much faster rate. Most always it is something 'physicial' happening on the map with your units.
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The cause of the lag is other triggers that are now fireing at a much faster rate. Most always it is something 'physicial' happening on the map with your units.
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WOW... REALLY?! THAT'S farkING TALKING CRAZY!
Thanks... you totally cleared my understanding on this matter?!
But really... What kind of triggers would cause lag if we don't include spawn triggers. (Or kill triggers...)
Report, edit, etc...Posted by (U)Bolt_Head on 2006-04-14 at 12:50:44
Well I'm sure there are many more but here are some that I can think of.
OBSESSIVE SIMOTANIOUS wavs being played at the same time overlapping.
Creating Units
Killing units
Any Order issued to units that cause them to move includeing AIs and state changes like borrowing
Moving (aka transporting) units
*Not sure but Possably Changing the player of units (if there visable as in not burrowed)
I know for a FACT that Centering Locations does NOT cause lag. If anyone besides me has made a map that has Just over 64 locations centered at every 'click' of the hyper trigger tell me. Because mine didn't lag at all.
I've also made maps that have hugh amounts of units constantly changing players with no or minimal lag. Normally they were not visable however.
I can't really think of more specific examples lol.
OBSESSIVE SIMOTANIOUS wavs being played at the same time overlapping.
Creating Units
Killing units
Any Order issued to units that cause them to move includeing AIs and state changes like borrowing
Moving (aka transporting) units
*Not sure but Possably Changing the player of units (if there visable as in not burrowed)
I know for a FACT that Centering Locations does NOT cause lag. If anyone besides me has made a map that has Just over 64 locations centered at every 'click' of the hyper trigger tell me. Because mine didn't lag at all.
I've also made maps that have hugh amounts of units constantly changing players with no or minimal lag. Normally they were not visable however.
I can't really think of more specific examples lol.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Veta on 2006-04-14 at 14:09:32
Yeah.. this is mind boggling. -.-'
I think it might be my huge DC timers... or maybe the constant Allying/Visioning of allies with the Anti-BS triggers.
I have no idea though, perhaps if someone looked at it they could decipher it.
Edit: Oh yeah now I remember why I let this thread dwindle... the reason is because I had ALL PLAYERS doing the waits, my dilemma is that I use ALL PLAYERS and need one Human player to be Hypering *is that a word?* at any time. I tried making p9-11 do it but no results. :/
Edit, Again: Well... I tried and even when I just let one player handle the Hypers, even if it's a computer, it still lags. Therefore.. it's some kind of trigger lagging it. What could it be?
I think it might be my huge DC timers... or maybe the constant Allying/Visioning of allies with the Anti-BS triggers.
I have no idea though, perhaps if someone looked at it they could decipher it.
Edit: Oh yeah now I remember why I let this thread dwindle... the reason is because I had ALL PLAYERS doing the waits, my dilemma is that I use ALL PLAYERS and need one Human player to be Hypering *is that a word?* at any time. I tried making p9-11 do it but no results. :/
Edit, Again: Well... I tried and even when I just let one player handle the Hypers, even if it's a computer, it still lags. Therefore.. it's some kind of trigger lagging it. What could it be?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Steel_Hand55 on 2006-04-16 at 21:45:12
*sigh* memorize this rule in your head: hyper triggers, because of the way they function, will GUARANTEED almost always drop one player. this has nothing to do with other triggers, or graphics being manipulated, or anything like that. its just the way they function; i don't know why (for that matter, no one i can think of does either). google a search for hyper triggers, and you'll find the same info (or if you find a solution, than more power to you ). i got this information from documents that i found on hyper triggers, made by people who actually spend time researching this stuff (idk why, but....). i've heard that using a non-zero increment might work
(i.e. wait 5 milliseconds
wait 5 milliseconds
wait 5 milliseconds)
but it will slow the trigger down (maybe not even enough to be a substantial difference, so you could just use that. i've used up to increments of 7 in my maps, and it still was no noticable difference. if you're doing a bound, on the other hand, it might be a different story.
sorry for the long post; i hoped it helped!
). i got this information from documents that i found on hyper triggers, made by people who actually spend time researching this stuff (idk why, but....). i've heard that using a non-zero increment might work(i.e. wait 5 milliseconds
wait 5 milliseconds
wait 5 milliseconds)
but it will slow the trigger down (maybe not even enough to be a substantial difference, so you could just use that. i've used up to increments of 7 in my maps, and it still was no noticable difference. if you're doing a bound, on the other hand, it might be a different story.
sorry for the long post; i hoped it helped!
Report, edit, etc...Posted by (U)Bolt_Head on 2006-04-17 at 01:55:15
I hate to break it to you Steel_Hand55, the most in-depth knowledge and research has been done right here by SENs members.
I hate to brag... On the subject of Hyper Triggers I was one of the earliest to do obsessive research on it or to use them at all. I've used hyper triggers longer than most people here have been mapmaking (at least 5 years), At times I could tell you the specific order that each wait fires within each trigger, I calculated the speed of hyper triggers in game seconds, how many trigger cycles there will be before the first NEO. I've spent months testing waits and attempting to explain them to everyone else. Many of the "must of hyper triggers" people rant on about were dictated by me. Waits combined with Trigger order is by far the most complex subject in Starcraft Mapmaking. If you want to find out good information about hyper triggers your better off interviewing me than using google.
And the sad thing is the smallest increment of waits is 84milliseconds. Everything is rounded up to the nearest 84millisecond mark. The difference between 1 and 5 is nonexistent. Its like suggesting comments effect how triggers run.
I'm not going to claim to be an expert on lag but I am an expert on hyper triggers. And it is of my belief that a lurker walking across the map causes more lag than a set of active hyper triggers.
I hate to brag... On the subject of Hyper Triggers I was one of the earliest to do obsessive research on it or to use them at all. I've used hyper triggers longer than most people here have been mapmaking (at least 5 years), At times I could tell you the specific order that each wait fires within each trigger, I calculated the speed of hyper triggers in game seconds, how many trigger cycles there will be before the first NEO. I've spent months testing waits and attempting to explain them to everyone else. Many of the "must of hyper triggers" people rant on about were dictated by me. Waits combined with Trigger order is by far the most complex subject in Starcraft Mapmaking. If you want to find out good information about hyper triggers your better off interviewing me than using google.
And the sad thing is the smallest increment of waits is 84milliseconds. Everything is rounded up to the nearest 84millisecond mark. The difference between 1 and 5 is nonexistent. Its like suggesting comments effect how triggers run.
I'm not going to claim to be an expert on lag but I am an expert on hyper triggers. And it is of my belief that a lurker walking across the map causes more lag than a set of active hyper triggers.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Kupo on 2006-04-17 at 01:59:27
QUOTE((U)Bolt_Head @ Apr 16 2006, 09:54 PM)
I hate to break it to you Steel_Hand55, the most indepth knowleage and research has been done right here by SENs members.
I hate to brag... On the subject of Hyper Triggers I was one of the earliest to do obsessive research on it or to use them at all. I've used hyper triggers longer than most people here have been mapmaking (at least 5 years), At times I could tell you the specific order that each wait fires within each trigger, I calculated the speed of hyper triggers in game seconds, how many trigger cycles there will be before the first NEO. I've spent months testing waits and attempting to explain them to everyone else. Many of the "must of hyper triggers" people rant on about were dictated by me. Waits combined with Triggerorder is by far the most complex subject in Starcraft Mapmaking. If you want to find out good information about hyper triggers your better off interveiwing me than using google.
And the sad thing is the smallest increment of waits is 84milliseconds. Everything is rounded up to the nearest 84millisecond mark. The differance between 1 and 5 is nonexistant. Its like suggesting comments effect how triggers run.
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I hate to brag... On the subject of Hyper Triggers I was one of the earliest to do obsessive research on it or to use them at all. I've used hyper triggers longer than most people here have been mapmaking (at least 5 years), At times I could tell you the specific order that each wait fires within each trigger, I calculated the speed of hyper triggers in game seconds, how many trigger cycles there will be before the first NEO. I've spent months testing waits and attempting to explain them to everyone else. Many of the "must of hyper triggers" people rant on about were dictated by me. Waits combined with Triggerorder is by far the most complex subject in Starcraft Mapmaking. If you want to find out good information about hyper triggers your better off interveiwing me than using google.
And the sad thing is the smallest increment of waits is 84milliseconds. Everything is rounded up to the nearest 84millisecond mark. The differance between 1 and 5 is nonexistant. Its like suggesting comments effect how triggers run.
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The bolt head has spoken! i seriously do not get a word of that.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Demaris on 2006-04-17 at 02:01:00
QUOTE((U)Bolt_Head @ Apr 17 2006, 12:54 AM)
I hate to break it to you Steel_Hand55, the most in-depth knowledge and research has been done right here by SENs members.
I hate to brag... On the subject of Hyper Triggers I was one of the earliest to do obsessive research on it or to use them at all. I've used hyper triggers longer than most people here have been mapmaking (at least 5 years), At times I could tell you the specific order that each wait fires within each trigger, I calculated the speed of hyper triggers in game seconds, how many trigger cycles there will be before the first NEO. I've spent months testing waits and attempting to explain them to everyone else. Many of the "must of hyper triggers" people rant on about were dictated by me. Waits combined with Trigger order is by far the most complex subject in Starcraft Mapmaking. If you want to find out good information about hyper triggers your better off interviewing me than using google.
And the sad thing is the smallest increment of waits is 84milliseconds. Everything is rounded up to the nearest 84millisecond mark. The difference between 1 and 5 is nonexistent. Its like suggesting comments effect how triggers run.
I'm not going to claim to be an expert on lag but I am an expert on hyper triggers. And it is of my belief that a lurker walking across the map causes more lag than a set of active hyper triggers.
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I hate to brag... On the subject of Hyper Triggers I was one of the earliest to do obsessive research on it or to use them at all. I've used hyper triggers longer than most people here have been mapmaking (at least 5 years), At times I could tell you the specific order that each wait fires within each trigger, I calculated the speed of hyper triggers in game seconds, how many trigger cycles there will be before the first NEO. I've spent months testing waits and attempting to explain them to everyone else. Many of the "must of hyper triggers" people rant on about were dictated by me. Waits combined with Trigger order is by far the most complex subject in Starcraft Mapmaking. If you want to find out good information about hyper triggers your better off interviewing me than using google.
And the sad thing is the smallest increment of waits is 84milliseconds. Everything is rounded up to the nearest 84millisecond mark. The difference between 1 and 5 is nonexistent. Its like suggesting comments effect how triggers run.
I'm not going to claim to be an expert on lag but I am an expert on hyper triggers. And it is of my belief that a lurker walking across the map causes more lag than a set of active hyper triggers.
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Any reason why that is the minimum? Starcraft engine not able to react any faster?
And would this mean a hyper trigger full of 84 ms waits would do the same as zero waits?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by (U)Bolt_Head on 2006-04-17 at 02:11:29
QUOTE(Demaris @ Apr 17 2006, 12:00 AM)
Any reason why that is the minimum? Starcraft engine not able to react any faster?
And would this mean a hyper trigger full of 84 ms waits would do the same as zero waits?
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You would probolly have to kick it down to 83 milli. 84milliseconds would be the next click up.
I wasn't the one who determaned it was "84 milliseconds" that was Dabbu here
http://www.staredit.net/index.php?showtopic=2683&hl=
What I determained was hyper triggers with wait zero fire 11.87134 times a second. And once you do the proper math to determain how long that is came out to be very close to 84 milliseconds just as Dabuu found. I'm not going to go into detail about How I found that number. If your deciated enouth you could find the details of how i did it within the forums here on SEN.
As far as the reasoning you guess is as good as mine. I would assume that most simply blizzard didn't see a reason to have triggers more accurate than a 12th a second. Most likely just a processing issue, now days computers wouldn't have nearlly as much trouble with it as they used to when starcraft was new.