Report, edit, etc...Posted by Golden-Fist on 2006-05-21 at 18:56:09
QUOTE
Ending the Battle Between Keyboard and Controller:
"Originally, we thought the PC would destroy the Xbox controller," said Bill Gross, a Software Test Engineer working on Shadowrun, the premiere Live Anywhere title for the Xbox 360 and Windows Vista. "But it didn't."
For years now there's been a debate about whether a console controller could ever compete with a PC's keyboard and mouse combination. With the upcoming release of Live Anywhere, which puts Xbox 360 and Windows Vista players against one another, we've got a new source of information to help end the debate.
Shadowrun, developed by FASA and published by Microsoft, will be Live Anywhere's premier game, launching at the same time as Vista in an effort to push the new multiplayer platform. It's a fast-paced twitch FPS similar to Counterstrike, and an ideal example of how controls have to be tweaked in order to balance out gameplay.
Balancing the gameplay between the two systems took a lot of trial and error. And contradictory to what most gamers would expect, the keyboard and mouse didn't dominate. In fact, it lost. Repeatedly.
"There will always be people that say the keyboard is better," Gross said during an interview on the floor of E3 2006. "In our game, we've found that's not the case. When we first started testing it, the keyboard tended to have an advantage in long distance combat, and the controller had an advantage in close combat. You could do things quicker on the controller (than the keyboard)."
Were the PC players just inexperienced? In most forums, people will argue that the keyboard and mouse combination is more efficient than the console controller, yet FASA's experience developing Shadowrun suggests otherwise.
"These were good, experienced Halo and Counterstrike players," Gross said when I suggested that maybe the PC team just wasn't up to par. "Some of these guys have held their own against Fatal1ty on the PC, and we put them against some pretty average console players."
Even with a mismatch of skill in favor of the PC, the keyboard and mouse combination consistently lost to the Xbox 360 controller. FASA's solution, of course, was to immediately start balancing out the game.
"We've been playing with the settings," said Gross. "We turned on magnetism (on the PC), some auto-aim. We adjusted the settings on the Xbox 360 to balance it out."
Over time, the numbers came back into balance, and control style became less important. Now, the FASA testing team plays every day, and no one is winning more than the others.
"Whatever you prefer, you're going to do well," Gross pointed out. "There will be no advantage."
Still, it's interesting to note that the premier title designed to pit PC and Xbox users against each other showed that the Xbox 360 controller was actually better than the keyboard and mouse in their first tests.
Of course, a great deal depends on how the two systems are configured. For example, if auto-aim is turned on for the Xbox 360 and not for the PC, that would make a substantial difference.
For future strategies, though, if the Xbox controller is better at close combat and the mouse and keyboard are better at a distance, perhaps performance will be partially based on level size; knowing your game means playing on the levels that favor your controller.
Live Anywhere casts an interesting new light on a debate that's been raging for some time.
Another interesting note, display resolution doesn't seem to impact success, either. Unless you're utilizing a high definition TV, which only has a market penetration of about 20%, PC users will have more exact detail and pixel-per-pixel display accuracy than their home console counterparts. The average TV user will have an image that's extremely anti-aliased. Luckily, the difference doesn't seem to impact how well you play, and doesn't award an advantage to either system.
"Originally, we thought the PC would destroy the Xbox controller," said Bill Gross, a Software Test Engineer working on Shadowrun, the premiere Live Anywhere title for the Xbox 360 and Windows Vista. "But it didn't."
For years now there's been a debate about whether a console controller could ever compete with a PC's keyboard and mouse combination. With the upcoming release of Live Anywhere, which puts Xbox 360 and Windows Vista players against one another, we've got a new source of information to help end the debate.
Shadowrun, developed by FASA and published by Microsoft, will be Live Anywhere's premier game, launching at the same time as Vista in an effort to push the new multiplayer platform. It's a fast-paced twitch FPS similar to Counterstrike, and an ideal example of how controls have to be tweaked in order to balance out gameplay.
Balancing the gameplay between the two systems took a lot of trial and error. And contradictory to what most gamers would expect, the keyboard and mouse didn't dominate. In fact, it lost. Repeatedly.
"There will always be people that say the keyboard is better," Gross said during an interview on the floor of E3 2006. "In our game, we've found that's not the case. When we first started testing it, the keyboard tended to have an advantage in long distance combat, and the controller had an advantage in close combat. You could do things quicker on the controller (than the keyboard)."
Were the PC players just inexperienced? In most forums, people will argue that the keyboard and mouse combination is more efficient than the console controller, yet FASA's experience developing Shadowrun suggests otherwise.
"These were good, experienced Halo and Counterstrike players," Gross said when I suggested that maybe the PC team just wasn't up to par. "Some of these guys have held their own against Fatal1ty on the PC, and we put them against some pretty average console players."
Even with a mismatch of skill in favor of the PC, the keyboard and mouse combination consistently lost to the Xbox 360 controller. FASA's solution, of course, was to immediately start balancing out the game.
"We've been playing with the settings," said Gross. "We turned on magnetism (on the PC), some auto-aim. We adjusted the settings on the Xbox 360 to balance it out."
Over time, the numbers came back into balance, and control style became less important. Now, the FASA testing team plays every day, and no one is winning more than the others.
"Whatever you prefer, you're going to do well," Gross pointed out. "There will be no advantage."
Still, it's interesting to note that the premier title designed to pit PC and Xbox users against each other showed that the Xbox 360 controller was actually better than the keyboard and mouse in their first tests.
Of course, a great deal depends on how the two systems are configured. For example, if auto-aim is turned on for the Xbox 360 and not for the PC, that would make a substantial difference.
For future strategies, though, if the Xbox controller is better at close combat and the mouse and keyboard are better at a distance, perhaps performance will be partially based on level size; knowing your game means playing on the levels that favor your controller.
Live Anywhere casts an interesting new light on a debate that's been raging for some time.
Another interesting note, display resolution doesn't seem to impact success, either. Unless you're utilizing a high definition TV, which only has a market penetration of about 20%, PC users will have more exact detail and pixel-per-pixel display accuracy than their home console counterparts. The average TV user will have an image that's extremely anti-aliased. Luckily, the difference doesn't seem to impact how well you play, and doesn't award an advantage to either system.
So apparently they had to set Xbox360's controllers advantages like Auto-Aim OFF in order to make it fair. That's awesome. This is about the debate of Live anywhere and how Xbox Live will be able to play with people on Windows Vista (So when Halo 2 is released on Windows Vista they can play with people on Xbox Live)
Report, edit, etc...Posted by dumbducky on 2006-05-21 at 19:51:52
It all depends on the game and person. For me, the controller aiming is too hard. It is either too slow or too fast. When too slow, it makes it hard to turn and aim. When too fast, it makes it hard to pinpoint your crosshair. With the mouse, it moves as fast as I move my hand. I like that much better.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Deathawk on 2006-05-21 at 19:58:11
QUOTE(dumbducky @ May 21 2006, 06:51 PM)
It all depends on the game and person. For me, the controller aiming is too hard. It is either too slow or too fast. When too slow, it makes it hard to turn and aim. When too fast, it makes it hard to pinpoint your crosshair. With the mouse, it moves as fast as I move my hand. I like that much better.
[right][snapback]490585[/snapback][/right]
[right][snapback]490585[/snapback][/right]
That's how I feel
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Dr.Shotgun on 2006-05-21 at 20:23:28
Mouse+Keyboard>Controller.
At least for me. I guess it depends on the person in question. Plus, having an optical/laser mouse helps.
Or, if you really wanted something cool, try and get Zerosign to make a Powerglove mouse for you.
At least for me. I guess it depends on the person in question. Plus, having an optical/laser mouse helps.
Or, if you really wanted something cool, try and get Zerosign to make a Powerglove mouse for you.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Golden-Fist on 2006-05-21 at 20:47:02
I guess you guys missed the underlined part.
It's not like it was pros verus pros. It was average gamers (Like yourselves) verus some counter strike people. But whatever.
QUOTE
"These were good, experienced Halo and Counterstrike players," Gross said when I suggested that maybe the PC team just wasn't up to par. "Some of these guys have held their own against Fatal1ty on the PC, and we put them against some pretty average console players."
It's not like it was pros verus pros. It was average gamers (Like yourselves) verus some counter strike people. But whatever.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by RedNara on 2006-05-21 at 22:11:09
I still cant believe that.. Expect maybe maybe jumping and switching weapons might be easier.. But serioulsy aming the mouse owns...
But i gotta agree on moving jumping and swtiching weapons real fast the controller beats mouse and keyboard. But thats only where you doing so much at once, but serioulsy aiming owns in mouse...
But i gotta agree on moving jumping and swtiching weapons real fast the controller beats mouse and keyboard. But thats only where you doing so much at once, but serioulsy aiming owns in mouse...
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Xeno on 2006-05-21 at 22:47:34
That doesn't make any sense.
It sounds to me like they had people who are used to playing CS playing a FPS that were inexperienced with against some people.
It sounds to me like they had people who are used to playing CS playing a FPS that were inexperienced with against some people.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Zycorax on 2006-05-22 at 09:43:18
Depends on what type of game it is:
Driving: X-Box 360 > Keyboard + Mouse
First person shooting: X-Box 360 < Keyboard + Mouse
RPG: X-Box 360 = Keyboard + Mouse
Driving: X-Box 360 > Keyboard + Mouse
First person shooting: X-Box 360 < Keyboard + Mouse
RPG: X-Box 360 = Keyboard + Mouse
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Golden-Fist on 2006-05-22 at 16:59:45
QUOTE(Zycorax @ May 22 2006, 08:42 AM)
Depends what type of game it is[right][snapback]490790[/snapback][/right]
Since when was there a debate about Racing Game controls or RPG controls. It doesn't make a difference. It's about FPSs.
QUOTE(Xeno)
It sounds to me like they had people who are used to playing CS playing a FPS that were inexperienced with against some people.
I actually don't know what you said but i'll try clerifying since obviously no one can catch on to underlined text.
They got Counter Strike players in a clan of CS play a match against average gamers who were decent and FPS to play against each other. The game they were playing was called Shadowrun which hasn't been released yet, and will probably be the first game to use Live Anywhere. The average people used the Controller and the CS people used the keyboard and mouse like they always do.
And the average people kept winning, when auto aiming was turned off it was an even match and no one won more so than the other team.
Any questions?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by KaboomHahahein on 2006-05-22 at 20:51:20
That is actually pretty cool how they plan to make Xbox players play with people playing on computers. I think they should keep autoaim on in a small range because from my experience (I don't play console that much) it is harder to control with a controller than just with your mouse. One of my friends thinks that it is harder to play with a mouse than with a controller.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by RedNara on 2006-05-22 at 21:32:35
Yep, Live Anywhere and putting it in like every Vista computers thats coming out is a real good advertising, and pretty cool idea for Microsoft.
It seems like Micosoft believes in software a lot much more than hardware, becuase they are a software company. Actually from what im seeing right now Microsoft took the right choice of keeping there system cost efficent for people to buy, and giving them great software deals... Personally hardware is only about 1/4th of the console.
It seems like Micosoft believes in software a lot much more than hardware, becuase they are a software company. Actually from what im seeing right now Microsoft took the right choice of keeping there system cost efficent for people to buy, and giving them great software deals... Personally hardware is only about 1/4th of the console.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Slyence on 2006-05-22 at 22:03:47
Windows Vista could be delayed because Symantec is taking them to court. Live Anywhere may be tide up in court.
http://www.forbes.com/technology/2006/05/1...19symantec.html
Auto Aim should never be in a PC game I agree but magnetism is a must have in a console shooter, just not as much as some games are giving us. Halo1 I think had the perfect balance of magnetism. I know people who would not even touch the game on PC just because it has auto aim in it.
I could never play properlly with keyboard mouse. I HATE to play anygame on the computer. However Controllers feel like a part of my hand when I use them. Without controllers I would be a crappy ass gamer. However with controlers Im a very good one. So as this debate rages it doesnt really seem that big of a deal to me.
http://www.forbes.com/technology/2006/05/1...19symantec.html
Auto Aim should never be in a PC game I agree but magnetism is a must have in a console shooter, just not as much as some games are giving us. Halo1 I think had the perfect balance of magnetism. I know people who would not even touch the game on PC just because it has auto aim in it.
I could never play properlly with keyboard mouse. I HATE to play anygame on the computer. However Controllers feel like a part of my hand when I use them. Without controllers I would be a crappy ass gamer. However with controlers Im a very good one. So as this debate rages it doesnt really seem that big of a deal to me.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Golden-Fist on 2006-05-22 at 22:51:19
QUOTE(KaboomHahahein @ May 22 2006, 07:50 PM)
I think they should keep autoaim on in a small range because from my experience (I don't play console that much) it is harder to control with a controller than just with your mouse. One of my friends thinks that it is harder to play with a mouse than with a controller.[right][snapback]490999[/snapback][/right]
Wow.
That was kind of the friggin point of me posting this thread? Everyone thinks that Keyboard and Mouse is a better set up (As shown in the last... well, every single post) but with this new discovery it's not. And they only turned auto aim off because before the mouse and keyboard people were getting dominated by the controllers. My news falls upon deaf ears as the saying goes :/
Report, edit, etc...Posted by KaboomHahahein on 2006-05-22 at 22:55:55
I'm just stating my opinion on what I think about the keyboard mouse and controller settings. You might need some autoaim but not for a very big area.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Slyence on 2006-05-23 at 06:24:30
There shouldn't be AA in any type of game, especially in shooting games. I myself don't feel comfortable when controlling a single character by just my keyboard. They keyboard may only let the character go straight, down, left, right. When a controller can make the character go diagonal and vertical.
So yes, I do think the Xbox 360 Controller beats the Keyboard and Mouse. Except for the damn AA.
So yes, I do think the Xbox 360 Controller beats the Keyboard and Mouse. Except for the damn AA.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Golden-Fist on 2006-05-23 at 08:51:59
AA is normally abrevation of Anti Aliasing, just to tell you. And you can do that with the keyboard as well, it's called pressing two buttons at once.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Slyence on 2006-05-23 at 09:01:02
Well thanks for telling me what AA means, I normally call Auto Aim "AA". All the games I play on the PC doesn't have AA where you push two buttons...
Report, edit, etc...Posted by KrAzY on 2006-05-23 at 09:25:10
QUOTE(Zycorax @ May 22 2006, 06:42 AM)
Depends on what type of game it is:
Driving: X-Box 360 > Keyboard + Mouse
First person shooting: X-Box 360 < Keyboard + Mouse
RPG: X-Box 360 = Keyboard + Mouse
[right][snapback]490790[/snapback][/right]
Driving: X-Box 360 > Keyboard + Mouse
First person shooting: X-Box 360 < Keyboard + Mouse
RPG: X-Box 360 = Keyboard + Mouse
[right][snapback]490790[/snapback][/right]
Xbox controllers are designed for FPS, look at the trigger.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Golden-Fist on 2006-05-23 at 15:43:21
QUOTE(Slyence @ May 23 2006, 08:00 AM)
Well thanks for telling me what AA means, I normally call Auto Aim "AA". All the games I play on the PC doesn't have AA where you push two buttons...[right][snapback]491182[/snapback][/right]
I was talking about moving around. You said that you can only move forward, back, left, and right. Not diagonally. But you can, by pressing two buttons.