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I know it's probably a tired topic, but I might have some insight on it that I'd like a few of you to read and consider anyway.

What's your take on the matter?

Sorry, Tux, but this'll probably be moved...

I think protection isn't a good thing. Although there ARE some people who really want to use it for a good reason, there are more people who wish to steal maps that outweigh them.

The OSMAP unprotector is a way for map thiefs to steal maps, but it could also help noobie map makers figure out triggers that other people that made, theres both ups and downs to it. I'm generally against it though.

I don't think looking at other's maps is generally a good idea... you get to see how something works in a specific case. That's similar to learning the Pythagorean Theorem but not the Law of Cosines.

That's what they did at our school... I've never even heard of the Law of Cosines.

Ah good point. But most people don't think with logical minds and probably would need to take that hands on step at least once to make the connection.

In any case it's not like there isn't tutorials or people willing to help available, though. Unprotecting to see maps is overrated.


Ok I just figured an issue about map unprotection on a mapping forum would (for its own context) count as 'serious'. I know it's not 'serious' for real, though.

I agree with you Tux. Map unprotectors nowadays remove comments and rename switches etc. I really doubt that somebody would take the time to open a map and piece together your triggering. So what else would people use map unprotectors for then if not to look at map triggering (even though we already have triggerviewer)? People will most likely steal or rig maps when they unprotect a map. Of course there is still a few "underground" methods of stopping OSMAP.

Overall though, I think that map unprotection isn't such a great thing.

You learn the Pythagorean thereom in grade 6 and the Cosine law in grade 10. Actually, I learned it in grade 9, but whatever, I can't remeber it anyway.

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OSMAP shouldn't be necessary, nor should protection methods.

While both protection and unprotection do good with each other in helping us advance our craft further and further while they war against each other the bad outweighs the good. Just like in a real war they'res casualties, however in this case it's people feelings and time that come into play. Their mental lives, instead of their physical lives. If map stealing was never an issue we'd probably never have the most advanced editors but I still dare to dream.

In a perfect world without protection the lack of urgency afforded by unprotectors would give programmers more time to perfect their projects, making them even better and more professional. There would be more people that had been discouraged by theft in our community, they might bring their expertise, there would be less arguments and more people helping instead of hurting. People would be worknig together, instead of against each other. And even when competitions did flare up the'd both be for the good. Like SCMDraft vs. StarForge on steroids.

Gee wiz I'm an optimist, aren't I. That's never gonig to happen.

I fully agree that map creators should have the choice of whether to allow other people to edit their maps or not. If the creator of a map doesn't want you to learn from his work or is being cautious, you shouldn't be able to do anything about it; they made the map, ask them for permission.

I dont think it is that big of a deal! People that dont want to protect their maps dont have to. They run the risk of it being stolen, but Its not like your losing the world, and it would take a while for someone to completely make it their map, it would be played a bit before being messed with. The map would already be known to be yours! But people who protect your map dont run the risk of people stealing it but you have to make all the other versions to this map, If you kept it normal without protecting it then others could make different versions and add things! I dont protect my maps so people can make their own versions and I really dont care if someone steals it, people already know its mine!

When starcraft first came out, none of the maps where protected. This caused many more version be made, some of them rigged. But if you look at the games that were, and still are, heavily played then you will notice that almost all of those games started out un-protected, such as bunker wars, golems, evolves, and even the first bounds.

I do agree that map protection should be the makers own choice. But using a protector that compesses removes almost any chance of some one improving the game. Also if you leave it unprotected, and some pubby does make an update onto it, it is likely that they will host it many times to try to get their version (hopefully still with your name) out there.

For me, map unprotection = Bad. But leaving a map unprotected isn't as bad as long as you know the risk of credit being taken.

Yeah, it Could be used to help noobie map makers to figure out triggers, except no ones going to use it for that.

OSMAP is a Way for Thieves to steal maps, end of story.
(FYI Galactic Conquest wasn't protected =P)

THe only good thing I can see comming from looking at anothers map is trying to improve it or fix a bug you find. I have never actually learned anything from looking at someone elses map, often times simply becomming confused because they do things differently then I do. But if you find a bug or a way to improve it, you could always simply ask the creator if you can fix it, or simply tell them there's a problem.

The maker has the right to have his inner map triggers/etc away from others.
What are the tutorials for anyways, don't people ever look at them?

Some makers never protect the map because either because they are lazy, or they dont care about what the people do about their map as long as they dont steal it.

I think the main purpose of map unprotection is to steal maps. Really, how many of you actually unprotected maps to figure out how to do some triggers? Beyond that, I'll be hypocritical and support open source mapping. However, I believe that a map maker has the right to protect his or her map.

Could EUD conditions be made so that if the fog of war is lifted off/disabled of a corner or something that a player normally can't see, they lose? I know that's anti-hack protection talk right there, but I just wanted to toss that into the mix.

Protection is good becuz u dont have to go tell everyone on BNet that you made the map.
You can just protect it with ur name on it so who ever plays it knows u made it

In my opinion, those aren't the ONLY reasons why someone wouldn't protect their map. Yes, map stealing is bad. Down with OSMAP and all that jazz. But the only reason why I would protect a map is if it's a new, innovative idea that no one has done before (you'll notice it's almost impossible to play a game on battle.net that you haven't played before.). Otherwise, my reason for NOT protecting a map is that I'm satisfied with myself that I made the map. If someone steals it, it means I made a map that's good enough for stealing! Granted, that would really piss me off, but I would realize eventually that I don't need people to know that I made the map. I just need ME to know that I made the map, that I accomplished something. I shouldn't have to care about what other people think, or if someone decides to steal the credit, because if they can't figure out how to make the maps themselves and would rather steal my map, that's their problem, not mine. I agree with using map unprotection to examine and study a map, but ONLY after you have tried EVERYTHING else. Honestly, though, I've never learned a thing from opening a map. I usually just get confused.
Here's something I'd like to see, though, because I've never heard of one before:
A map protector like Uber@tion that gives you a choice to add a password to your map. I think that the thing that pisses me off the most about map protection is that I'll protect my map and then find a bug. Now, I can't even open my own damn map! I have to dig out my backup copies and edit them, and then protect it AGAIN, probably just to find another God forsaken bug. Also, if you had a password-protected map, you would be able to let someone you know and trust into your map to observe or fix it by simply giving them the password. You'd just have to use a password no one would guess, and trust me, that's not that hard. All you have to do is use something that DOESN'T have anything to with you, or your pet, or your family, or your friends. Make it a fruit, or a random sequence of numbers. I don't understand why someone would use their pet's name or their daughter's birthdate or something for their password. It seems utterly stupid.
Now, I think I'm done. Sorry for the rant.

I support map protection if the creator wants it. Maps are theoretically covered by intellectual property rights or maybe even copyright law, but, face it, no one's going to sue over a Starcraft map; you'd get thrown out of court. Protection is taking copyrights into your own hands. In a perfect world, people wouldn't need to protect their maps, but in a perfect world they wouldn't need to lock their cars either. So I say: protect maps, and then if someone wants to learn how an effect was made, let them ask the maker. That way, the creator doesn't run the possibility of having his or her map stolen by some unscrupulous rat.

I support Open Source Maps, but I don't support forced OSM. If one doesn't want to have their map as an OSM, then they shouldn't have to.

People who use the excuse that they're 'learning' don't have that excuse because of the Trigger Viewer.

Look its been said many times, the issue is the good and bad and which does more. The bad is simple: 5000 versions of a single map, stolen maps, rigged maps, (MasterJohny and Shimby's mods of Panzers Raccoon City are examples.) and the makers want their credit.

However the good: People learn how maps work, so they can in turn make good maps, and some maps are bugged with makers who no longer make maps, so they wont fix them. Other people decide to fix them.

Another point i dont think is made: Bnet is running out of talented mappers. SEN might not, but not every SEN map maker has their map hosted for a day or two to get it around, some just post it in the DLDB. Alot of Bnet players dont even know about SEN, so the map wont be made popular. Now what does a n00b who wants to map, does not know about SEN, to do? Unprotect a map and open it? That is the easiest but not the best way. You can look at triggers all you want, you can copy them in your own map, but i find this method doesnt teach anything, or much if any. The problem is alot of the map makers ive seen are full of self gratification and pride and they think they are too good to help n00bs who host games titled "Help with (Insert edtior here) PLEASE"

I join those games. I try to help. Im in a map making clan, and i help our newer more inexperianced members. I think that if every good mapper on SEN taught 3 people how to make maps, the "good" of unprotection would be further out weighed. So my solution is this: People need to help others, SEN should be supported by blizzard and advertised on the top banner, (YES I KNOW this will never happen.) and finally good mappers need to get down of their freaking self built pedastles.

Teach the n00bs, and we have only left the bad of unprotection. Wait whats that? You asked what about bug fixing? Well let me put it like this: If we teach people to map, and try to instil our values of keeping the makers name on it, and to re-protect a map youve edited, we could fix that too.

We as mappers need to do our part in this, to teach, not just make new protection.

-DB

I'm with Tux as far as leaving maps unprotected goes (then again its not like anyone will look at my maps as a guide for anythign, but okay). I think map stealing is dumb as hell, but I actually have nothing against OSMap. I admit, I used an unprotector a few times when I first started map making to see how people did stuff (this was much before Trigger Viewer existed by the way) so I can see how that argument is logical.

[/2cents]

But that excuse is no longer valid.

I know that, I'm just saying that is how I would validate it.

In addition to looking at the triggers, though, I'd also unprotect maps to take a look at overlaps in some unit names (before I started using tabs/3x laps) and to see how units would be placed in a certain way. Both of those can't be accomplished with Trigger Viewer.

Being on a Mac, however, I now have no way to unprotect maps, so I really don't care anymore. All of my maps are open and will remain so (incluing perhaps Monopoly supposing I'll ever finish it).