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Staredit Network -> Lite Discussion -> Plane on a treadmill
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Do-0dan on 2006-12-19 at 23:51:02
A plane is standing on a runway that can move (like a giant conveyor belt). This conveyor has a control system that tracks the plane's speed and tunes the speed of the conveyor to be exactly the same (but in the opposite direction).

Will the plane be able to take off?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Tuxedo Templar on 2006-12-20 at 00:28:51
I wouldn't think so. You need speed to attain lift. How you gonna get that if you're stuck in place?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Do-0dan on 2006-12-20 at 00:47:15
Here's an argument to that: "Oh, wait a minute. I was thinking of a car. Yeah the airplane will take off because the thrust isn't dependent on the ground, it's just that when it DOES take off the wheels will be spinning twice as fast."
Report, edit, etc...Posted by DT_Battlekruser on 2006-12-20 at 00:54:39
The vector velocity of the wings is roughly equal to that of the surrounding air molecules. Therefore, there is no air passing over the wing, no pressure disparity, and zero lift. If the plane is not moving relative to the surrounding air, there is no lift.

The plane will not take off.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by roryfenrir on 2006-12-20 at 17:55:43
turn the jets on full blast and lets see how fast that tread mill can go smile.gif
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Rantent on 2006-12-20 at 18:14:51
It would work if the treadmill was replaced with a wind tunnel.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Lord_Agamemnon(MM) on 2006-12-20 at 18:41:50
But a wind tunnel pushes air over the wings. As DTBK said, if there's no air movement over/under the wings, the plane won't be able to take off.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Mune'R0x on 2006-12-20 at 19:10:20
A new movie starring Sam Jackson?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by green_meklar on 2006-12-20 at 20:53:32
DT_Battlekruser is correct. It doesn't matter how fast the plane's wheels and the treadmill are going, if the air around the plane is stopped relative to the plane, it cannot take off because no lift is being generated.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Do-0dan on 2006-12-20 at 22:00:46
Now instead of a plane, let's say a space shuttle right before lift off is put on this treadmill horizontally and has wheels on it. Would the shuttle be able to fly?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Rantent on 2006-12-21 at 01:53:53
Right before lift-off, so the engines are gunning, yet it is horizontally placed. You've built a rocket car.
Run away from the site as fast as you can.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by DT_Battlekruser on 2006-12-21 at 03:23:15
Hypothetically, if you have the space shuttle pointed horizontally on wheels with the launch assembly attached, and the treadmill has no maximum speed, the shuttle won't lift off.

But, if it's pointed vertically, it will lift off regardless of its horizontal motion since a rocket provides direct vertical thrust through the expulsion of gasses.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Lithium on 2006-12-27 at 08:51:20
Treadmills are proven inefficient in aeroflights.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by green_meklar on 2006-12-27 at 16:41:44
QUOTE
Now instead of a plane, let's say a space shuttle right before lift off is put on this treadmill horizontally and has wheels on it. Would the shuttle be able to fly?

No, because the space shuttle is not built to either take off on its own or take off using its wings. However, unlike an airplane, a space shuttle and its boosters placed on a vertical treadmill would be able to take off, because it does not depend on airflow.
QUOTE
Hypothetically, if you have the space shuttle pointed horizontally on wheels with the launch assembly attached, and the treadmill has no maximum speed, the shuttle won't lift off.

But, if it's pointed vertically, it will lift off regardless of its horizontal motion since a rocket provides direct vertical thrust through the expulsion of gasses.

Exactly.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Lithium on 2006-12-28 at 01:10:30
Instead of a treadmill, a propeller would be way more efficient.

Why do you asking this?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Rantent on 2006-12-29 at 14:19:36
QUOTE(DT_Battlekruser)
and the treadmill has no maximum speed
Assuming the treadmill has a coefficient of friction > 0, then at some point it would create enough force that it would stimulate movements in the air and the shuttle would lift off. (Assuming also that such a treadmill could withstand the forces involved with no maximum speed limit.)
Report, edit, etc...Posted by green_meklar on 2006-12-29 at 21:00:26
QUOTE
Assuming the treadmill has a coefficient of friction > 0, then at some point it would create enough force that it would stimulate movements in the air and the shuttle would lift off.

Well, the question then is what aerodynamic environment you're running it in. In a wind tunnel it might get going fairly quickly, whereas sitting out in the middle of the ground it might just get too turbulent and never work properly.

Anyway, I think we're assuming the treadmill doesn't affect the air, only the wheels of the airplane/space shuttle/whatever.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by DT_Battlekruser on 2006-12-29 at 22:39:37
Yeah, I was taking that as a given. Hypothetical physics is so much fun tongue.gif
Report, edit, etc...Posted by green_meklar on 2006-12-30 at 12:21:41
Sure is! One of my favorites is where you have a large quantity of water floating in the air; if you swim around inside it you're okay, but as soon as you stick part of yourself out the bottom, you start falling, and the more is sticking out the faster you fall. Infinitely hard materials also provide for some interesting scenarios, such as FTL communication. And of course there's always the good old seeing yourself in non-euclidean space thing.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Lithium on 2007-01-01 at 10:20:12
it would be a better reality to put that amount of water in space, and make it fall through the atmosphere. Walla, broiled humans.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by MillenniumArmy on 2007-01-01 at 22:42:51
QUOTE(Do-0dan @ Dec 19 2006, 11:51 PM)
A plane is standing on a runway that can move (like a giant conveyor belt). This conveyor has a control system that tracks the plane's speed and tunes the speed of the conveyor to be exactly the same (but in the opposite direction).

Will the plane be able to take off?
[right][snapback]605670[/snapback][/right]

Yes

Since there was no specification on what kind of plane it was, I assumed it to be a Harrier.
QUOTE
Assuming the treadmill has a coefficient of friction > 0, then at some point it would create enough force that it would stimulate movements in the air and the shuttle would lift off. (Assuming also that such a treadmill could withstand the forces involved with no maximum speed limit.)

Well doesn't the conveyer belt have to have a coefficient of friction > 0 in the first place? Otherwise if it's at 0, then belt will be just like ice (actually, smoother than ice) and the plane's wheels will be moving but the plane itself wont move, even with the conveyer belt stationary.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Rantent on 2007-01-02 at 06:59:16
Because if the substance actually did have a coefficient of friction = 0 it would mean that it is not made up of atoms, and is rather a mess of smaller particles, which would be so minuscule that the air in the room would be unable to differentiate the electronegativity on the surface, from one particle to the next. That is of course assuming that the belt is indeed a solid.

If, in the strange case that the treadmill was a liquid or gas, the fact that the tires themselves have volume, would create friction and drag in the treadmill. Of course this would mean that the plane itself would have to be more buoyant that whatever the treadmill is made of. So if we assume that the room pressure remains constant, while the treadmill (which is theoretically made of gas.) is made to have less and less drag, which would mean thinning out or depressurizing the gas in the belt; the plane would simply float upwards. This is not because of the treadmill, but simply because it would be less dense then the air in the room. You could then rightfully argue that the plane was a blimp. tongue.gif
Report, edit, etc...Posted by green_meklar on 2007-01-02 at 12:15:31
QUOTE
Yes

Since there was no specification on what kind of plane it was, I assumed it to be a Harrier.

lol
QUOTE
Well doesn't the conveyer belt have to have a coefficient of friction > 0 in the first place? Otherwise if it's at 0, then belt will be just like ice (actually, smoother than ice) and the plane's wheels will be moving but the plane itself wont move, even with the conveyer belt stationary.

Actually, you're right, and I was thinking about that too. If the coefficient of friction was zero, the plane would remain in place and its wheels would not turn, no matter how fast you ran the conveyer belt. So for these purposes I think we're assuming either that one, the friction only affects the plane's wheels and not the air, or two, the belt cannot go nearly fast enough to get a high enough airflow without destroying the plane first.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by DT_Battlekruser on 2007-01-02 at 22:37:09
QUOTE
Well doesn't the conveyer belt have to have a coefficient of friction > 0 in the first place? Otherwise if it's at 0, then belt will be just like ice (actually, smoother than ice) and the plane's wheels will be moving but the plane itself wont move, even with the conveyer belt stationary.


If the conveyor belt has no friction, then it applies no force to the plane, but the plane will accelerate because jet engines provide direct thrust, they don't turn the wheels.

But yeah, in the theoretical physics world, we assume the conveyor belt does not disturb the surrounding air.
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