Staredit Network

I was reading around other sites and such... and found some interesting posts.
One person wanted to include obs in a popular map. I see nothing wrong with this.
Another person wanted just to look at melee maps in detail. I like doing this too. And I know our dldb people just recently had some problems organizing the melee sections because of protected maps and no screenshots.

So what's wrong with the above two examples?

On the other hand, I really don't see too much editting being possible with an real unprotected map (obs would probably be easy on melee and what not).

I want another discussion from both sides of osmap. Keep it mature because immature posts just makes your side look bad.

i just make maps for the point of having something new to play (well, its my reason now...)

There are good uses and there are definitely benefits of open mapmaking(releasing maps not protected). But by releasing a tool like osmap to the public you totally disrespect the authors of the maps who decided to protect the map for a reason. Both sides has benefits, but osmap is taking away every single benefit of the protection from the map maker.

» Protection favors map makers.
» Osmap favors people who want to view maps. If it's about "learning" again, there are other better ways.

We're map makers, right?

I think the protection methods are also not that good - if those who protect maps support newbies to learn, the protector must not remove trigger comments.

How about if the author wants his creation to stay untouched?

Edit: I know that there are more flaws to OSMAP than the ones you listed.

Siege Cop pretty much nailed it IP. Mappers deserve their choice, and noobies do deserve to learn. Its all on where we personally draw the line for ourselves. I myself dont mind learning but OSMAP counters all protection making it more trouble than its worth.

If i take the time to make a map i have the right to say i dont want it modified and if they want to learn they can contact me.

Instead of flaming Mr. Gigins why dont you say those points, now dont you think that would be the mature thing to do?

Just because your oppinion differers doesnt make you right or wrong in a matter like this either. The answer in the end will be a majority oppinion then a final say by the administrators.

I agree, but then again I would like unprotection, im very split. Back in the days when i didnt know as much osmap would of been a great help cause then i could of unlocked a couple of maps by people who are no longer here, for example dabbu.

So im assuming you brought this topic back up because of maplantis? (a simple yes or no is all I want)

Id also like to state, that if SEN did start supporting OSMAP as Maplantis has, I, among others im sure, would flat out leave. Things are working fine how they are, and OSMAPers can go to Maplantis. Allowing OSMAP on SEN is not going to help anyone but riggers and stealers, and possibly a few noobs who are sensible enough to learn and not steal, but couldve read tutorials anyway.

I feel your going to make a rather large mistake if your not careful IP.

Also: All my melee maps are open source. I dont care if someone steals some terrain and doodads, but on a UMS where i put effort into triggers, balance, names, placement, and terrain all in one, i want my work untouched unless i give permission.

A few? heck i used it 3 days ago to unlock my friends map since he forgot the code, and 1 week ago to unlock a older map that I was curious about an image trick was done.

Your friend made a mistake, good show for you OSMAPping kookster.[/sarcasm]

And that image trick couldve been taught from experianced people on SEN. OSMAP is not only making obsolete protection but its further distancing the experianced/noob map makers because they wont go to us to learn, theyll look at our work and assume they know it.

Learning from the makers is better, and even if a specific maker isnt around anymore, there will still be others who know how to do things. We have trigger systems completely explained all over SEN and your going to tell me a better way is for them to open the map its used on rather than seeing it here with people to help them with what they dont understand? Get real Kookster.

I dont like relying on people whenever I have a question Ide prefer to find out for myself than having to make a post everytime i dont know something!! Being independant, but im sure not many here know what that really is.

(please dont respond to any of my posts now cause I will no longer check this forum because the lack of integrity that it now has)

PS: if you really want to make something not openable by osmap you can learn to hex edit, and change a few things in there.

Why would you assume that? No, I already stated why I brought this topic back... I saw two people, non-sen'ers, non-maplantians talking about how they would have their use for osmap.

I personally had evilopol unlock a map back in the day with hex to view how triggers were being done. I sorted through the garbage'd strings and still got what I was looking for. I had asked what was being done, but no one knew for sure.

I also believe it should be the author's choice if a map is edited "for the better" or not. However, there are other uses beyond editting, beyond trying to learn. That's what my first post was about,

Gigins, keep it mature.

I agree Open Source Mapping could greatly benefit newbies in need of trigger help, however there is a few things I would just like to state:

• Those who claim OSMAP is for opening maps and looking at them, stop being willfuly blind to the endless oportunities for people to rig maps, steal credit, add credit that doesn't belong to them and other things that go against the reasons why some people protect.

• To Maplantis users, your goals are great, I like what you stride for. However to think you can control a community of maybe 100s or 1000s of people (upon the site getting bigger, if it does) is crazy talk. I like how you try to keep it organized and in line now, but how will you monitor a community of 1000 people and stop them all from rigging a map or stealing a map. You must remember most newbies don't understand all these concepts that we understand on respect.

• I think SEN should support Open Source Mapping, but not in the form of OSMAP, but rather encourage people to release maps unprotected, it would be respecting some peoples wish to protect their maps whilst also trying to create an environment where we can feel okay with releasing maps unprotected.


Side Note: Due to maplantis, I recently decided to support Open Source Mapping, also the fact that the people that have started the CSMAP campaign have no programming capabilities and can't do anything anyways. I also like Zell.Dincht's one, JMMAPS -- I haven't asked him exactly what it means but I made the assumption it was Just Make MAPS.

I think SEN should support Open Source Mapping, not OSMAP the program.

Nice post shocko. And a lot of the community already does this. Tux released his maps unprotected, etc etc etc.

I dare say (I was just talking about this over IM), the most hyprocritical thing for people, especially maplantians who claim "community mapping", is to unprotect a map, make a few changes, and feel the need to take some credit for themselves by adding "edited by me". Why not just fix the map and leave credit mostly where credit is due, to the orginal maker?

Time for my two cents...

As a modder, I know that open source has the potential to be a good thing. Pretty well everything modding is open source, to promote pushing forward in what modders can do. To discover new things.

However, there are differences between modding and mapping.

Mods cannot float around Battle.Net, waiting for some noob to rig it. The modding community is much more close-knit, and we respect each other's work, rather than try to deface it.

I'll say this once, and once only: I support open source mapping, and encourage mappers to release their maps unprotected. However, I also support and respect that the mapper should have a choice whether to protect their map or not.

That's all from me.

Reasons why Osmap is good and bad

The good
-If you protected your map and forgot to save another version then you will be stuck with the original protected one that could have major bugs. But with osmap you can re-open it. Save another version then protect it again.

-No doubt the majority of the people who like the map so much that they want to make a spin-off from it. But they have to know the map first. Since its locked they have no concept on the spin-off. but with osmap they can take a peak and then re-lock it.

-It's great for parties

-The dldb mods could get there screenshot job faster if they can open the map, get the screenie and then lock the map again.

-If theres a cool ass sound in the map and the person wants to use it in there map then they can unprotect the map, retrieve the music file then lock it again!

-If a person notices theres a terrible bug or want to add onto the map they could open it and make there specials like banning triggers, colored units and much more.

the bad
-People on Bnet are not honest now a days and they just want to spoil a map for there own riggness, cheapness or BS'ness

-When they open the map and leave it that way and play it on Bnet over 100 users will get it, rigg it then pass it on making the original creator feel bad because people will then put him/her to blame.

-Betrays the map makers trust since now a perfectly good map is made it can be lowered significantly

-Map theifs come and claim it for there own even though that doesnt happen much

-People will start downloading so many versions of a map that they will get angry and they will take to mind what is wrong and what is right and the pattern goes on.
Cough*hero arena*Cough Cough*cat and mouse maps*Cough Cough*Diplomacy's and world war maps*Cough

And thats my opinion on why Osmap is good and bad.

-

both ends are bad.

there are 3 groups.

the map makers (g1)

the people learning (g2)

and the n00bs who want to steal credit and rig maps (g3)

g1 makes maps for g2 to learn off.

once g2 gets enough info, they will move to g1 thus making maps themselves, and then g1 people get turned away because there are people from g3 destroying their hard work. thus everyone except people in g3 loose.

osmap is overall bad. this is why there arent many people left to map making. starcraft 1.14 did its damage, but overall, the public release of osmap has destroyed the map making community, and starcraft along with it. the only thing left is to discover more map-protection methods to stop osmap.

we always have trigger viewer, right? what more do we need?

I don't think calling them fags falls under being mature.

sorry, but the members of that group can be really irritating

renamed to n00bs.

This is exactly the kind of approach we need. But there is the matter of choice. If people have the choice to open source their maps, then thats good. If its forced on us its not right. We the makers have our rights.

Shocko is finally making some sense, holy crap.

Still not got anymore mature.



Ima say immature but only because it's about me !

On WC3 Battlenet, there is a special game called 'LOAP' - Life of a peasant. In it, you play as a hero, get a job, live your life. There are 8 regular players, one drug lord, one mafia, and one police player. This is the original version. It's how it started out. It is an unprotected map.

Now, there are games like LOAP - World Ruler and LOAP - Hellfire and LOAP - Shinobi and LOAP - Star Wars and a million other crappy unbalanced versions. Let me tell you about 'LOAP - World Ruler' - there is a player, the World Ruler, who has infinite stats, can blink anywhere, and kills anything. That's it. Nothing good, just something to let the map hosters be uber strong, rigged, and gay. In other versions, the amount of regular players was reduced from 8 to 2 and the other slots were things like terribly balanced secret agents, God, Death, Samurai, Kung-fu master, etc - each one of them extremely rigged.

This is possible the most imbalanced game ever released on battlenet. Why? Because people liked the idea and thought that it would be cool to have uber stats so they opened it and messed it up. One after another. Until there were a million versions, all terrible, all rigged, all would leave an honest mapper in tears (I didn't cry because I'm not honest, but it was a close thing.).

I do not want to see anything like this happening to a game created by someone on this website. Granted, LOAP was originally a unbalanced game - cops could arrest anyone and keep them forever, stuff like that. But if the maps were released unprotected, any game could be released after it has been gay'd up. Tuxlar's Rush, for example. You damage could be set to 99999+99999 or you start with a dropship or something like that. ANY map could be made and beaten, released, and redistributed simply because it's very easy to beat - it will be far more popular then the original.

Newbies could always learn on SEN, or by experimentation, or asking someone for help - no need to go unprotecting maps. The upsides of OSMAP are far less important then the downside I stated.

I agree with Shocko - as long as you don't support something that takes away the choice from mappers, I'm fine with it. You knew the risks, you took 'em, you're map is screwed on battle net. It's your fault. Not the fault of the noob who got OSMAP and screwed with your map.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure LOAP is the second most popular map on WCIII battlenet, after Defense of the Ancients, which is actually pretty good. It's not just once in a while, I never saw a page without at least one noob hosting a screwed up LOAP.

So far, I've not heard of anyone stealing a map by using OSMAP. But there's always the chance that somewhere, someday, there will be an immature punk that does use it for stealing. I agree with the idea that SEN should support open sourcing, but not specifically OSMAP. Wc3campaigns.net, which is a site I used to visit some (before they had problems of their own) supported open source mapping for years. In their DLDB, I remember them having a green thumbs up on all the maps that weren't protected, and a red thumbs down on maps that were. It was kind of a funny idea, but it seemed effective. About 90% of all the maps I looked at there were not protected. But the site did not FORCE its views by rejecting maps that were protected.

Allowing OSMAP to be used by trusted staff members for easier DLDB work sounds like a fine idea to me, too.

As long as the DLDB members, when permanently uploading it into the database, protect it again or put the original protected version in, I'm fine with DLDB people unprotecting maps. I trust them more than I trust the majority of battle net.