See You At the Pole (syatp for short) is an event where christian students gather around the school's flag poll and pray or worship God. Keep in mind that most of these schools are public schools, funded by the government. Do you believe that syatp conflicts with the seperation of church and state?
I'm torn on this...don't know what I think
The founding fathers didn't want seperation of church and state. It's not in the constitution. They didnt want public schools either, but thats a different matter.
It's a blatant violation of separation between church and state. Enough said.
I don't care whether or not people choose to pray in school or whatever, that's their business. I only take issue when prayer is required or if students who are religious are given any special treatment, such as a time set aside for prayer. FireKame's example only brings church and state into conflict if those who are praying get to leave class for the event or whatever. But hey, if it's their free time they can do whatever they want with it.
Let it be if it can bring some joy to some people... Doesn't mean it's "illegal" to publicly pray even if the state doesn't support it.
Ugh, why do I always see the words 'The Constitution' wherever I go on the web?
Guess what - the UK has no constitution - we just take our rights for granted here.
As for the question of praying around a flagpole - the very idea makes me cringe for two reasons...
...which I'm not going to say here.
Uh... Why not? This is probably the best place to say it.
"I'm very opinionated when it comes to this issue but I'm not going to tell you which side I'm on."
Why post in this topic at all? State the opinion and your reasoning, anything else is spam. I guess this post is, too, now that I think about it.
First off, you said they gather around the flagpole to worship God. No specific god was named there (if any god at all). You're saying this violates seperation of Church and state. Which church is this? The Christian church? Is it a mosque, Muslim chuch? Allah is God for them. Maybe it's Judaism. Seperation of synagouge and state?
Secondly, guess what religion the founding fathers were? Christianity comes to mind for a good deal of them. You have to right to freedom of religion and free worship, but not the right to disrespect the roots that this country was found on.
But you have to keep in mind it wasn't founded on religion. It was founded on principles (whether or not the principles were first introduced to the founding fathers is a whole different issue). Just because the founding fathers were of one particular religion doesn't mean we should respect it any more than any other religion.
There are limits to that... Think Raël (dunno the english equivalent of the religion name).
QUOTE(Nozomu @ Sep 13 2004, 07:33 PM)
Uh... Why not? This is probably the best place to say it.
"I'm very opinionated when it comes to this issue but I'm not going to tell you which side I'm on."
Why post in this topic at all? State the opinion and your reasoning, anything else is spam. I guess this post is, too, now that I think about it.
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Ok, ok - it's just that Americans seem to be easily offended...
Here are my reasons:
1. I'm not a fan of overt religious display.
2. I'm not a fan of American patriotism. Praying around the flag just takes the cake in my view.
3. In the case of praying around the flag - it's symbolic of worshipping it and your nation. (Links closely with point 2.)
Very good reasons, man, and very valid points. Don't ever worry about offending us, we're only offended by irrational arguments.
i think it matters on each specific school, like they should take a petition or something
QUOTE(Mini Moose 2707 @ Sep 13 2004, 11:41 AM)
First off, you said they gather around the flagpole to worship God. No specific god was named there (if any god at all). You're saying this violates seperation of Church and state. Which church is this? The Christian church? Is it a mosque, Muslim chuch? Allah is God for them. Maybe it's Judaism. Seperation of synagouge and state?
Secondly, guess what religion the founding fathers were? Christianity comes to mind for a good deal of them. You have to right to freedom of religion and free worship, but not the right to disrespect the roots that this country was found on.
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heh that reminds me of an interesting point. Many people say they don't know any racial slurs for whites, but there is a term caleld WASPs. Every leader- except for the Kennedys, I think- were white anglo-saxon protestants.
It is aloud at my school, because there are other after/before school activities offered.
captainwill: that isn't offensive, it's what you believe. In part, I believe most of what you said as well...
They did SYATF at my school, but I never got up that early to be there.
=/
Our foundin fathers didn't want separation of religion and governmeant. The seperation thing was started by an atheist several years ago. Each person can pray to their own god(s). Atheists can just think to themselves: "What a bunch of religiouse fools." If someone dosn't want to pray, fine. If someone isn't Catholic, they can pray their own prayers.
wanting to ban syatp just because your atheist is like saying i want to ban the annual ice cream festival because i hate ice cream
Why do you people care so much about what other people do? As long as it doesn't hurt you, it is good. I don't see why we all just can't respect one another... Really, you people get intelligent conversations going on stupid topics. Good job!
Well, one offensive term for a stupid white person is 'Wazungu' in some parts of Africa.
Never heard of 'WASPs' before.
THis is pretty ridiculous, people are trying to get god taken out of the pledge of alligiance but the students can be absent from school and wear clothes that are out of dress code for religious/culture reasons.
QUOTE(FireKame @ Sep 13 2004, 06:26 PM)
heh that reminds me of an interesting point. Many people say they don't know any racial slurs for whites, but there is a term caleld WASPs. Every leader- except for the Kennedys, I think- were white anglo-saxon protestants.
It is aloud at my school, because there are other after/before school activities offered.
captainwill: that isn't offensive, it's what you believe. In part, I believe most of what you said as well...
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Uh, Martin van Buren was Dutch. That's two non-WASP Presidents already. Speaking of racial slurs for whites, there's always "gringo."
QUOTE(devilesk @ Sep 16 2004, 04:08 PM)
wanting to ban syatp just because your atheist is like saying i want to ban the annual ice cream festival because i hate ice cream
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Except people from the ice cream festival don't shove icecream down your throat on a daily basis.
No, I meant pole, as in flag pole
Why there? Could have been the Holy Toilet as well... Or the Holy Basketball Net representing God.