Staredit Network

Staredit Network -> Serious Discussion -> god
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Mr.Asdf on 2004-12-18 at 12:12:47
sumone must of created this world?




but who
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Fortune on 2004-12-18 at 12:48:34
_I don't believe in God in that regard. I am catholic, but I believe in a different universal power that formed the universe.

_Any thing could have done it, natural phenomenons occur all the time.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by notnuclearrabbit on 2004-12-18 at 14:37:04
I don't believe in God, or fate. I don't like the idea that anyone other than me can control my life/choices. This is probably gonna turn into a evolution vs. creationism discussion. I've always believed that everything was created by natural phenomenon.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by getaids on 2004-12-18 at 14:57:47
God Is...

Something cannot come from a state of nonexistence that has nothing to work upon it. The idea of nothing is absolute. There must be something to make something out of nothing. For this reason, nothing can bring itself into existence. So we know that each thing must be contingent on something for it's existence. Then perhaps there is a continual string of contingent beings bringing into existence other contingent beings. An illogical probability, one that I find neither rational nor satisfying, for there must be a beginning.

We are left with a Being whom is not contingent upon the existence of another being for it's own existence. While difficult to grasp, this is more logically probable. Some shirk at the word Being (meaning entity), yet have no trouble explaining the Universe as existing or agreeing upon an impersonal Force that exists.

Let us begin by examining the Universe as existing. The natural order of the Universe is not a function of the Universe. It is separate from the Universe and does not create the Universe. It is at the same time dependent upon the Universe for without matter, there is no motion, gravity, etc. Yet the Universe resides within this natural order. The Universe is dependent upon the natural order that governs it to exist. They are therefore mutually dependent (i.e., contingent) upon the existence of each other.
So the Universe cannot be that God which we seek, for God by definition is that Being which is not contingent upon anything for Its existence, from which all other things exist. The very nature of God is existence.

Knowing that God exists, God could not have not existed, nor could God cease to exist since all other things in existence are contingent upon God's Own existence. God is therefore eternal.

The natural order of the Universe are those laws which govern the Universe (i.e., time, physics, contingency or Laws of Causation, etc.). Then God is outside of time (eternal), outside of contingency by definition. It follows that God is outside of physics.

For example, no heavenly body (i.e., stars, planets, and moons) puts itself in motion. For it is fundamental that an object in motion must be put in motion by an outside force. Remember though, that these laws are contingent on the Universe for their existence. Since God exists before the Universe, and the natural order (Laws of Nature) is contingent upon the Universe's existence for it's own, then God exists before these laws.

If God exists outside of these laws, then God's existence is not affected by these laws, for God is not contingent upon them. This includes time, physics, contingency or Laws of Causation.

By Universe I do not mean this, the only physical Universe. I choose universe as the object of explanation instead of man, atoms, matter, protons, etc. Partly because the universe is a larger object, partly because I did not want to use man, for that would have invited creation vs. evolution arguments, but mostly because I meant by universe, all matter from the smallest element to the largest supernova.
As for there being other universes, it depends on your view of the universe as perhaps no more than a mere solar system in the scheme of things, or perhaps as a mere atom. Intriguing to contemplate, yet still we are forced to consider whether everything came from a state of nonexistence with nothing in it to get it from nothing, or an infinite line of caused things caused by other things.

And the neutrino god doesn't cut it as the concept of God: that which is not contingent on anything for it's existence from which all things come. It just changes the perception of our view from that of a person to that of a particle of an atom; it does not eliminate the validity of the argument, (or rather the possibility).
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Zergling[SK] on 2004-12-18 at 15:24:11
I read somewhere that everything was created, by something that created itself...In other words if you ask 'Who created God?' He created himself because he is the thing that created everything else.

QUOTE
There is a Pre-Existent being in the universe that created everything else.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by EzDay281 on 2004-12-18 at 19:29:09
"I don't believe in God, or fate. I don't like the idea that anyone other than me can control my life/choices. This is probably gonna turn into a evolution vs. creationism discussion. I've always believed that everything was created by natural phenomenon."

Then you shun ideas merely because you dislike them?
Though, ya this'll prolly turn into Evo Creo thread.

God may exist.
He may not.

Until I have evidence of his existance, I will believe he doesn't, though I won't disregard it as a possibilty.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by AqoTrooper on 2004-12-19 at 09:14:01
hey ppl, remember that 'god' was created by men lived long long ago had no education and thought the world is flat and it's the center of the universe.

beliving in god is like beliving in dragons, ghosts, or other fantasies - it's dumb... no way true... yes it's fun to hear about it but it's no way true.
and still, it's a fact that some people do belive in god...

well, imo, god is crap.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by chuiu on 2004-12-19 at 09:51:54
I believe the belief in God was used as an explanation for things. Man fears what he does not know and eventually hates it. So if he can't explain or justify his existance, he will suffer through it and hate it. Which is where God comes it. It explains everything about his existance. Just like the world is the center of the universe and the world is flat. He did not know how these things actually were and those beliefs caught on quickly as fact.

As you see over time, people began to learn more. And when then learned something new, no one accepted that it was true unless it was proven to them without any doubt. The problem with religion nowadays is that no one can proven either side of the argument is correct or not and so we cannot make progress past this part of our lives. Some choose to believe and sink their lives into a blind faith. Some choose not to believe. And some become confused, angered, and don't know what to do.

What path you choose at this point of your life is no worse or better than anyone elses. But there are advantages and disadvantages of each. And the fact that the belief in a God makes people able to live their day to day lives in comfort that they may someday go onto a better existance makes it the most popular of the three beliefs and the easier one to accept by most people.

How does an athiest or someone who is agnostic explain existance? They can't. And unless you believe in God, at this point of existance no one can explain it. It just is.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by AqoTrooper on 2004-12-19 at 10:33:04
there are many things you can't explain... but using god to explain them just moves you away from finding the real reason... besides, if there really was just one god than there was just one religion, and as you can see... it's not that way.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by DrunkenWrestler on 2004-12-19 at 12:39:33
QUOTE(Mr.Asdf)
sumone must of created this world?
but who

Blizzard Entertainment. We're all actually just a bunch of 1s and 0s.

...Crap, I think there's a glitch in the Matrix!

QUOTE(nuclearrabbit)
I don't like the idea that anyone other than me can control my life/choices.

I'm sure there's tons of people who don't want to believe we're at war. Still, the fact remains we are at war.

QUOTE(getaids)
Something cannot come from a state of nonexistence that has nothing to work upon it. The idea of nothing is absolute. There must be something to make something out of nothing. For this reason, nothing can bring itself into existence. So we know that each thing must be contingent on something for it's existence. Then perhaps there is a continual string of contingent beings bringing into existence other contingent beings. An illogical probability, one that I find neither rational nor satisfying, for there must be a beginning.

We are left with a Being whom is not contingent upon the existence of another being for it's own existence. While difficult to grasp, this is more logically probable. Some shirk at the word Being (meaning entity), yet have no trouble explaining the Universe as existing or agreeing upon an impersonal Force that exists.

This is slightly deceptive in that you define 'God' as the first cause, the uncaused cause, the initial existence that began the universe, etc, and nothing more. With this definition, God can be the black hole filled with maxium entrophy produced by a quntum fluctuation (which are known to be uncaused) that exploded into the big bang. However, the word 'God' obviously has religious connotations that follow.

QUOTE
Let us begin by examining the Universe as existing. The natural order of the Universe is not a function of the Universe.

An expanding universe allows more room for order to form. Order can arrive from disorder without the hand of a concious being, such as in the formation of a snowflake.

I can't understand the rest of your post because it's just a bunch of assertions without examples to deliniate your point. I'm afraid I might misunderstand and botch the words up to fit my own thoughts, so I'll refrain from responding to it until it's more clear.

QUOTE(Zergling[SK)
]I read somewhere that everything was created, by something that created itself...In other words if you ask 'Who created God?' He created himself because he is the thing that created everything else.

Then not everything has to come from something after all. Perhaps the universe just simply existed.

QUOTE
I believe the belief in God was used as an explanation for things.

Where knowledge ends, religion begins.

Have you ever noticed that the power of a god is only as strong as the number of people who worship them? Nobody believes in the Greek gods today, but they were as real to the Greeks as the gods people worship today. As their empires crumbled, so did their religions and now they are said today to be false religions of the ancients and are studied in history.

Today isn't too different. The power of Vinshu, God, and Allah are proportional to the number of people who worship them. I wouldn't be suprised if after the United States falls, a new civilization will erect and they will have their own gods to worship, and our gods will be just false things studied in their history classes.

I've also noticed, that in many cultures, gods often take the form of some father figure, which is a theme from childhood. It could be possible that we evolved the idea of god because it served as a placebo, benefitting our psychological health.

Someone on Blizzforums also makes an excellent point on gods:

QUOTE(Dark Magneto @ Blizzforums)
...this guy named moses comes down from a mountain with a set of stone tablets that have rules on them, saying that a God (yes, another one of those things, just like the Egyptians and Romans and Greeks and ancient tribesman and all the others invented). Well this one happened to be more successful than those gods of ancient past. Its values happened to also be the values of the people in that exact time period. What a coincidence, eh? Then it became outdated, so they made Yahweh v. 2.0, with the New testament. That was over 2 thousand years ago, so it's horribly outdated nowadays. You know, back then eating meat on a Friday, eating shellfish, or wearing clothes of more than 1 fabric were punishable by death. Notice we don't do that anymore. Society has evolved, and as a result, people reinterpret scriptures to say things that they don't. There's an entire practice for it called 'Apologetics', which is spin-doctoring scripture to try to shoehorn it with modern-day values.


QUOTE
The problem with religion nowadays is that no one can proven either side of the argument is correct or not and so we cannot make progress past this part of our lives.

You're absolutely right. However, I won't believe in something because it hasn't been debunked, I will only go where the evidence leads me.

No one has falsified the existence of leprechauns, but just because it hasn't been shown to be false (because something that doesn't exist can not possibily leave behind evidence it does not exist), I'm not going to chase a rainbow to the end for a pot of gold and maybe some Lucky Charms cereal. I won't even bother believing in the possibility they exist until I am shown a logical reason to do so. Takeing the stance, false until shown otherwise, I won't fall for any BS someone makes up.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by EzDay281 on 2004-12-19 at 23:48:36
"hey ppl, remember that 'god' was created by men lived long long ago had no education and thought the world is flat and it's the center of the universe.

beliving in god is like beliving in dragons, ghosts, or other fantasies - it's dumb... no way true... yes it's fun to hear about it but it's no way true.
and still, it's a fact that some people do belive in god...

well, imo, god is crap."

Ghosts, Dragons, and other fantasies could very well exist.
There are hundreds of thousands of creatures that humans already know they don't know about.
There could be, literally, millions more that humans have no evidence of.
Just because there's no evidence doesn't mean it's impossible.
Just because it's possible doesn't mean it is.

That's the problem with religious zealots and zealous anti-gods... they can't understand that both those statements, apparently, are true.

It was invented by people with no education?
Then could you not say that they were too ignorant to think of God, and so he had to place the idea into their heads, so that they can start religion?
I'm not saying it's what happened; I'm saying that it could have. And no one has anyway of knowing.


Also, I agree with the almighty Chu.


"there are many things you can't explain... but using god to explain them just moves you away from finding the real reason... besides, if there really was just one god than there was just one religion, and as you can see... it's not that way."

One god=one religion?
And how does this work?
There is only 1 Earth, so shouldn't there only be 1 continent?
More than 1 religion, only 1 god means that god doesn't exist doesn't make any sense at all to me.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by chuiu on 2004-12-20 at 00:03:16
It's funny ... people talk about biblical figures like Moses, etc. Nowadays those people are sent strait to psycho wards and not listened to or don't accomplish much. Just a little food for thought.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by DrunkenWrestler on 2004-12-20 at 01:20:45
QUOTE(EzDay2)
Ghosts, Dragons, and other fantasies could very well exist.
There are hundreds of thousands of creatures that humans already know they don't know about.
There could be, literally, millions more that humans have no evidence of.
Just because there's no evidence doesn't mean it's impossible.
Just because it's possible doesn't mean it is.

That's the problem with religious zealots and zealous anti-gods... they can't understand that both those statements, apparently, are true.

You sir, deserve a sticker of approval!

EDIT: But please learn to use the quote tags so it's easier to read your post. Some people might just skip it because of it's obscure presentation.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Mr.Camo on 2004-12-20 at 01:32:04
QUOTE(nuclearrabbit @ Dec 18 2004, 12:37 PM)
I don't believe in God, or fate. I don't like the idea that anyone other than me can control my life/choices. This is probably gonna turn into a evolution vs. creationism discussion. I've always believed that everything was created by natural phenomenon.
[right][snapback]111978[/snapback][/right]


I this organized religion is brain washing, and I agree with the statement above.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by AqoTrooper on 2004-12-20 at 07:58:23
QUOTE
One god=one religion?
And how does this work?
There is only 1 Earth, so shouldn't there only be 1 continent?
More than 1 religion, only 1 god means that god doesn't exist doesn't make any sense at all to me.
[right][snapback]112469[/snapback][/right]

well think of it, first of all, god and Earth are two different things.
should I write down the differences?
1. Earth is real

now, there are many religions live together on the world, but in all bible books it's told about how one religion killed people from other religions and tried to make their religion the only - by god's order.
today... erm... no.

also, have you noticed that people saw god are called psycho (as someone said above)?
so how does being a psycho that lived years ago makes your word more true than a psycho those days?

just think of it, when people started creating technology and become smart, god is 'suddenly' gone! all left is some science fiction and fantasy books written by psychos... wait? never mind... I was going to say the 'bible'...

anyhow, if you think of it you notice that the smarter the person the less he belives in god, I'm not trying to say you're not smart if you do belive in god, all I'm saying is that god was created by low educationed psychos and I don't think that you should belive em'.
the fact something is older, shouldn't make it better!!!

older =/= better,
older = outdateder!

and god is outdated! it's no more than a story written by people that didn't have computers, didn't have SC, and didn't have anything to do all day, so they just wrote fat books and become famous!

duh?
god is just like ghosts, dragons, etc, it's no more than a fantasy!
Report, edit, etc...Posted by RyanEdwardLee on 2004-12-21 at 10:23:04
Ah, the greatest bull censored.gif story ever told! Religion, forgive me while i rip greoge carlin off but he is right.

Religion is the greastest BS story ever told, the leaders of the cruch have millions of people believing that there is an invisable man in the sky who watchs everything you do, every day, every mintue, every second, and he has a set of ten rules you have to follow, and if you break a rule, he has a speical place for you, full of fire, brimstone, pain, and suffering for all enterouny, but he loves you!
He loves you and he needs your money, he is all powerful, all knowing, but he can't handle the money, religion takes in a billion dollars a year and doesn't pay taxes but they always need a little bit more, talk about a good story! Holy censored.gif !

Religion is just another way for us suckers to part with our money, and i don't believe in god. which is why i don't go to curch
Report, edit, etc...Posted by MillenniumArmy on 2004-12-21 at 12:49:14
God exists whether you choose to believe in him or not.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by chuiu on 2004-12-21 at 13:29:45
You've convinced me!
Report, edit, etc...Posted by AqoTrooper on 2004-12-21 at 14:34:42
QUOTE(MillenniumArmy @ Dec 21 2004, 08:49 PM)
God exists whether you choose to believe in him or not.
[right][snapback]113024[/snapback][/right]

I think it'll be more true to say:
god doesn't exist untill you prove he does,

now, prove it! tongue.gif
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Coop on 2004-12-21 at 15:39:08
QUOTE
I think it'll be more true to say:
god doesn't exist untill you prove he does,

now, prove it! 

Yeah please do prove it, were all listening.
I'm with the majority of the people here. Although im surprised theres not as many people arguing that they believe in god. I've talked to some of my friends who believed in god, one was mormon, and he believes god has spoken to him. He never used to believe in his religion until god actually spoke to him and now he happily goes to church. They brainwash you in church =/..
Report, edit, etc...Posted by DrunkenWrestler on 2004-12-21 at 22:13:34
The church is an institution that likes to bulid on the idea that they have a monopoly over this God character.

user posted image

I need to start a new religion myself, that's where the money is!
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Cloak(U) on 2004-12-21 at 22:18:31
hey man God is true, why do you think Leonardo teh Vinchi drew teh last supper painting thingy..... and why do they have a HOLY BIBLE and CHURCH and other thangs!
Report, edit, etc...Posted by DrunkenWrestler on 2004-12-21 at 22:22:12
After hearing so many horrible arguments for God in my lifetime, I can't tell whether the above post is an actual argument or a parody.
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Chill on 2004-12-21 at 22:26:17
It gets hard, doesn't it?
Report, edit, etc...Posted by Cloak(U) on 2004-12-21 at 22:43:05
No it doesn't get hard^.^ it gets sawft
Next Page (1)