Staredit Network

Well, it's been half the month already.. *also believes*

Yes, I'm so exited. Now I want to learn how to use Xcode.

2x days 'till the ETA...

I wouldn't count on the release date actually being the end of this month, unless DW has a winter break too or something..

Well It Is Now January 1'st .

Any progress report? .

Signups for alpha testing are available, but it hasn't actually been released yet.

Yeah, the thread's right below this one. I signed up shortly after DarkWizzard posted it.

Me too.

For christ sake it's been two years since they announced this and we don't even have a fully working alpha, let alone a beta. I've already gotten out of the marine corps and started college and these guys can't even manage a crappy second rate port in that time? Well, now that I've taken comp sci 1 and learned objective-C on my own, I'm done waiting. If any of you other mac users know anything about objective-C, or at least C/C++, email me and we'll get this party started ;[. This isn't the only place I'm going for people, so we could get a pretty diverse group.

Ummm... Right.... SCMdraft 2 has been in the making for like 2/3 of a year at most currently. The alpha version will be released within a month so I don't see your problem there.

Perhaps you're confusing this with SCMdraft 1 which wasn't ported to mac. Iono when it was released. Hope you enjoy making 1 on your own . I think most of us are satisified with his progress.

BS. SCMD2 was in alpha (which I tested myself in emulation) before I even left this scene in mid 2004. It's now 2006, making SCMD2 at least over a year old. Maybe if idiots like you had been around as long as I have (I've been around since before BW even came out) and hacked your way through diablo I as I did (and the only freaking mac user to do it, too) then you'd see the kind of crap we're putting up with right now. SI is a single person single handedly coding a very complex program. He accepts no help nor allows anyone but his little nazi buddy DW (who also primarily runs windows, just emulates mac) to even see his code. I've had to put up with this 'one step behind' crap since trying to match the hacks that PC users had in diablo 1. They had all sorts of nifty tools for hacking and all I had was a memory editor and macsbug, doing it by hand, and having to create my own systems for implementing them each time the program was run. They had Xtra editors before us, they had better ones too, then they had SF (which years ago was also going to be ported to mac, but that got cancelled) and now the 'best we can do', a half assed port of windows API using C++ code seems to be 'good enough' for everyone. No thanks. If you don't want to support the devs who want things to be better, than you can sit here and rot for another year while DW catches up with this year's code.

That's great, we respect your seniority/superiority that you have over us, and let us bow down to you, but you're talking of 2 different versions (Mac, an alpha of which is gonna be released, and PC, a beta of which is already available... not even the first beta either). SCMD2 was in beta for a LONG time (4-5 years), and it's not gonna get finished anytime soon (maybe in a year). SI is working it currently, and he has a job and goes to college. He's not just some random high school kid with loads of free time on his hands. Neither is DW. We're impressed that you used "hacking" and lots of buzz words in your post, but please, think of a point next time besides "I want it now."

Now, first of all, how do you know it's "half-assed"? Have you seen it? Have you seen the code behind it? The truth is, the Mac user base is lower than that of the PC (at least in terms of SC/map editing). You have no actual reason to bash this program, besides the fact that it took 1 - 1 1/2 years to port (if it's mid-2004...).

May I ask you, what the fuck do you mean when you say "...port of windows API using C++ code" as a negative thing? Is there any other way? Let's see, you create a program for Windows, you HAVE to use Win32 if you don't want it to be shitty, and it's time to port it to Mac. You get your "Nazi buddy" to port it to take your workload off of you. Most of the GUI/API code goes out the window the minute you start it for Mac. Sure, internally you can recycle a lot of stuff, but everything else is different. I think, given DW's schedule (which apparently is quite busy from what I hear), it's pretty fair to give him 1-2 years to work on it. Besides, he's gotten pretty damn close to finishing it (see alpha thread). Hell, see other threads about SCMD2:Mac just to know that he hasn't at all abandoned the project.

SCMD2:Mac is really the hold-up in terms of SCMD2 progress. When DW finishes it, he'll start to work on TrigEdit again and make it something more presentable (this will be released on the Mac first, mind you). Then, SI will create a Windows version of the plugin. Thus, in a year or two, you might actually see SCMD2 1.0. Oh, and SI still independently works on various SCMD2 updates (including Classic TrigEdit) for PC and Mac retroactively.

If you want to start your own editor, fine. Good luck catching up to this project/even StarEdit in at least a year or 1 1/2 years. Also good luck on the ISOM section, you'll need it.

I'm not saying he should hurry up. I'm saying that out of all the mac users that play SC and make maps, shouldn't there be at least SOME of you idiots who are competent enough to code something worth having? Trust me, I've used trigedit and I know what DW wants to do with it. If you've ever used SF, think again, it's nowhere near as nice. Here's the situation. Intel-mac users have zero options right now. They simply can't make maps. People on PPC/OSX 10.3-4 get to use classic for regular old staredit(HAHAHAHA YEAH RIGHT), or else emulate and use SF/SCMD. I find no point in using classic (since none of the staredits for that are any good) and can't emulate right now and my SC CD is too scratched to install on an emulated system (although it works on mac), so I effectively have no map editors. I am currently a member of the starchitects and more than likely the single best trigger editor of any time ever. I just recently wanted to get back into it.. oh but no. I have no editor. Isn't that cute?

Well, unlike you, I am not willing to just sit around waiting for someone else to give us a second rate windows program. Now, that's not to say that the features of SCMD are bad, in fact I think some of them are quite good (although I'm not so sure about multilayer copy/paste). However, if you've used trigedit, and I don't suppose you have, then you'd realize that as far as triggers go, we're gonna be left in the dirt. People on windows have the convenience of just doing terrain in SCMD and then switching to SF for triggers. We can't even do that. Hell, we can't do a damn thing right now.

That's not the point. The point is, I'm going to make a staredit program. Not like SCMD where it's just a windows program done in a mac GUI (however you'll notice it uses the same idiotic cluttered organization of the windows version), but a full cocoa implementation built from the ground up, with features that other people have refused to implement (for instance, removing switch and location names from the global string space). I'm doing it both as a learning experience (I'm fairly competent with obj-C now, and soon I'll be competent enough to give this project a serious start) and so that we can have a utility that we've NEEDED for a long time now. Not everyone can emulate and not everyone's needs are satisfied by even the best modified version of the original staredit. And what about the 4 people here who have a new intel-mac? Yeah, that's right, now they're stuck in rosetta because Adobe will have unibin photoshop out before you even see a beta version of SCMD2ME.

I really don't give a flying shiz if you support me. I may not get any support here (as if you're even capable, although please prove me wrong), or from warboards, or from any other SC community, but this will get finished. I know at least one person who will help me, and two others who I might be able to get to join in. That'd already be double of the SCMD2 team. You can worship SI and Heimdall all you want, but that won't get you any closer to having an editor.

Hey dumbass, at first people would probably ignore your constant stream of "...you idiots" and self-righteous bullshiz. You've done nothing worth noting, doesn't matter if you have potential skills or not. It's great that you're saying you learned objective-C (for the 2nd? 3rd time?), I'm impressed and so is everybody else. Really, we are. The point is, you really have to get off your high horse, buddy, since you won't be able to attack SCMD2 here while trying to get more people in support of something you have no clue how long it takes to do. Oh, and by the way, if you don't care if anyone supports you, why post here at all? I mean, you could have had a great idea (albeit negative, it doesn't matter though since forums welcome all), but you don't. All you can say is "develompent is too slow, you're all idiots and I know da 1337 h4x0rs, I'm gonna make a brand NEW editor even though I have no idea where to start while attacking an already established and almost complete project that fits what I'm searching for... did I tell you that you're all idiots and I konw da 1337 h4x0rs?"

It's nice that you think SF's trigger editor is better than TrigEdit, and for you to compare them. However, they're different in that one is completely text-based (and that is what DW wants to do with it... if you thought otherwise, you thought wrong), and another one is a mix between GUI and text. Pompous pricks enjoy TrigEdit noting it's similarity to C in syntax, so you might wanna give it a whirl, see how that pans out on your overall image.

Congratulations, as of now we all recognize that you are Quite Possibly the Signle Best Trigger Editor of the Entire Universe! Only, the master has a hindrance! Let's all quickly come together and make him an editor so he can further his art.

Unlike me, you use arbitrary insults as reasons why you will never use a program that you've never even tried (SCMD2:Mac alpha wasn't yet distributed, though once again, I invite you to sign up in the thread about it in this forum. Or will that hurt your h4x0r ego?). Besides, it's not a fucking Windows program. Everything pertaining exclusively to Windows/Win32 API is being re-coded in the port. Can't you understand that? There's really no other way.

Use Classic TrigEdit. Yes, SCMD2 is lacking in the trigger department. You did read the part about TrigEdit coming out on Mac first, right? SCMD2:Mac is pretty high up there in the priorities list, and that includes a decent trigger editor with its release. Just be patient, and trust me, you won't make another editor faster than DW could finish SCMD2:Mac (did you notice that the alpha is about to be distributed? I think this is the 3rd time I'm mentioning this).

"A Windows program done in a Mac GUI." Jesus Christ, what the fuck are you trying to say? ANY program can be a Windows program "done in a Mac GUI". That basically means "A Mac program with a Windows-typical layout". Once again, and it's bolded this time, all Windows-specific code won't be in the Mac version because it's... umm... Windows-specific? For someone who took "Comp Sci 101", it's not a hard concept to grasp. The internals of a program would look similar on every platform, it's just the GUI/API specific stuff that gets changed around.

Switch/location name deletion are done on protection. The reason nobody implemented it before then is because it's a protection issue: it's one step closer to opening protected maps. Anytime somebody mentions protection/unprotection, every dumbass crawls out of his corner and starts saying how the world will end. Besides, it really serves no purpose outside of a finalizing kinda option: why would you want to save a few kb's of space when you're still editing maps for extra convenience? It just makes no sense to implement them.

Once again, in case you forgot, DW is almost done. Got it? ALMOST DONE. Had you come here in 2 months, you wouldn't probably be even posting here. So, to recap: it will come out soon (at least the alpha), and it will have a full-fledged trigger editor a month or two after that.

Heimdal is not working on SF. SI and DW, however, are working on SCMD2/Classic TrigEdit and SCMD2:Mac/TrigEdit, respectively. It's nice you think we're "worshipping" them, but they're getting things done whereas you're not. So basically, you came in here for support by showing yourself off as a impatient pompous asshole? Few people, if any, would help you then. Even if they would, the speed of a project far from directly depends on the size of the team.

Don't you know anything about how strings work? Removing the switch/location names has nothing to do with reducing map size, it has to do with reclaiming extra string space. There are a limited number of strings for in-game text, unit names, comments, breifing text, switch names, location names, and other things in a map. It's very often that you'll run out of strings before finishing a map (which is really fun, completely halts development). So, the solution is to move all of the non-GUI strings like switch names, trigger comments, location names, etc out of the map's string space and into either a seperate .txt file in the .scx or else into a custom section of the .chk. SI, Heimdall, and others have blatantly refused this feature because it would make a map that other editors (like traditional SE) couldn't read properly. I find that to be an invalid issue since it's not too difficult to give it multiple export options for formats readable in other editors, protected/compressed formats (yay, another feature they refused, and guess what, if they refuse it mac users will NEVER have it), and development formats.

You see, if any of you had ever emulated and used SF/SCMD2, and maybe had been around for discussions with the guy who made proedit (wow I can't remember his name anymore) etc, you'd know what features you're missing now and what things you won't ever see just by waiting around.

Oh, and you talk like I don't know EXACTLY what TrigEdit is? Compare this:
TrigEdit:
-One huge linear list of unorganized triggers.
-Triggers in a textual pseudo-function format.
-No Autocomplete whatsoever.
-You get to save and compile the triggers manually and add them to the map yourself.

SF Trigs:
-Graphical/Text organization of triggers somewhat similar to original staredit.
-Every trigger is listed by comment, similar to classic staredit.
-Triggers in a textual pseudo-function format.
-Typing out a trigger name or argument will bring up a list, where the most likely completion is highlighted. Hitting tab will autocomplete with the current highlighted entry.
-You don't deal with compiling and saving triggers, it's done automatically (with a save button just like on classic staredit, rather than save/compile/whatever).

So, in conclusion, TrigEdit is just a huge mass of text because that's what DW likes, while SF's trigger system is nice and organized and does things to make triggering go FASTER. Between classic SE, SF, and TrigEdit, I have never had ANYTHING come close to the sheer speed and power of SF's editor, and if you think TrigEdit is going to be a 'Fully working' trigger editor, then you have obviously never tried to edit triggers from scratch in Trigedit (oh, and the fact that there's no help for the syntax is really great too!).

Strings take up bytes, bytes = a unit of size. Deletion of strings that arn't needed for Starcraft == Less Space.


The only limit is the size that part of the CHK can hold. It isn't 1024, just Staredit and any Staredit based editors can't check past 1024 and can't load up any past 1024 but editors like Scmdraft 2 and Starforge can.


Or just Delete them when protecting. It actually is a benefit. Think of it like this:
-You protect your map
-Protection deletes uneeded strings
-Someone gets your map unprotected
-Has a much harder time working with it because everything would seem so unorginized.


If you don't like it make your own editor.


You can go to triggers via the left textbox. It allows for the fastest reproduction of triggers. A simple Copy or Paste, you could write a simple javascript\php\C#\C\C++\Basic\Python\Any damn language to output tons upon tons of needed triggers that just have to be slightly modified.


Is it not still in the works? It's incomplete, and it is still going to be worked on. String Handling in C++ isn't the easiest thing in the world. I work with C# and err it can be a biznatch, which is why Heimdal Coded the Trigger Editor in VB.


Before I left map making what was my main editor of choice FOR EVERYTHING? Scmdraft 2. For Triggers I got Trigedit working fine. What do you mean no help for the syntax? There are 2 files giving you everything for the damn syntax. If you mean auto complete just wait your ass and let DW get the mac version done.

TrigEdit is a great editor, I like pure text. I like being able to see every one of my triggers in pure text at once. Once DW adds in things like Autocomplete it will be an even greater editor. It may not be your main editor of Choice, but that dosn't mean it's a bad editor. I found the editor absoluetely great and suited my perfectly. I liked seeing all my text, and that might of been because I code in various languages, but the pure text suits me alot better.

Right now Trigedit isn't complete, but when it is it will be alot better and will even attract more people. Pure Text allows me to hell even write another program so I can write in my own syntax and then output that in Trigedit syntax and just click compile and there ya go.

Btw who cares if you have to take the extra step to click "compile". On Starforge you ahve to take an extra step to open the trigger you want, to click on conditions and then actions and then ok.
Seriously who cares?

SC maps use 16 bit addresses to address strings, meaning it can adress up to 65,535 bytes of text, which amounts to 32,768 total characters of text. On top of that, there is limited address space for pointers to each line, so you can only actually use however many pointers there are (oh, and did I mention that each and every location name, switch name, and comment takes up one of these pointers), regardless of whether or not that takes up the whole 32,768 characters. What this means is if you're mapping along and have a lot of comments and in game text, or breifing effects (those take up a LOT) you will more than likely run out of string space or pointers for your text. I find that retarded when 384 of those pointers and huge amounts of the maximum space is taken up by "Location 0-127" and "Switch 0-255", text which the players of your map will not EVER see.

You can afford having the strings be there; there's not actual "1024" string limit, only in terms of compatibility with SE/SCXE. If you delete them, the map won't be compatible with SE/SCXE anyway. Yes, it might actually be a nifty feature at the very end when you're not actively using triggers with locations (what a pain in the ass it would be to try to differentiate between "Location 34" and "Location 56" when editing triggers), but at that point you really won't care about the string limit (once again, which only exists for compatibility which is already broken if you delete the location/switch names). Still makes no sense to have such a feature.

Read: the string limit doesn't exist. You won't get much by deleting switch/location names.

You mean Clokr_? What innovative features did he have? String recycling? That's done by SCMD2. PROEdit is virtually useless now that it's protection is succeeded by Uberation and the rest can be done/is done by SCMD2. It seems that you honestly underestimate what SCMD2 does: it has virtually everything you need barring mission briefings.

Did you notice the release of Classic TrigEdit?

You DO realize that I was talking about DW working on TrigEdit and releasing the completed version first to Mac?


2nd and 4th are actually liked around here by some people, that's what TrigEdit is for. That's its intent. It will get AutoComplete when it's done... Once again, if you missed it, it will be done after SCMD2:Mac is out of the door. It's not done yet, but it will be worked on. No, development hasn't stopped, and yes, you'll have to wait. However, the wait isn't that long


TrigEdit will get all of that (that's basically AutoComplete, the tree, and GUI cleanup), it's not done yet. It won't stay in its crippled state forever... You think they really want to keep everything crappy with triggers?


You're confusing two tenses: future and present. You're thinking of present, where TrigEdit is very hard and is a pain in the ass in my opinion. I'm talking about future, where TrigEdit will get AutoComplete, color coding, and a better organizational method (whether it's the tree or anything else).

By the way, instead of writing a completely new editor from scratch just because of the trigger editor, why not simply write a trigger editor? I realize you want something for the Mac, but won't this hold you over if you have qualms over SCMD2 as an editor?

You can simply wait (a month or two? not that long...) for SCMD2:Mac to come out and look the trigger editor it will get.


In reality, the number is actually way less than that if you get 1 char per string (the pointers themselves take up space), not to mention the pointers are signed for some reason.

Briefing effects? Those take up no space, only the display text ones. Everything besides location and switch names that's needed by triggers is also needed in the final version of the map, meaning it makes no sense to delete them. However, switch and location names really don't take that much space on average.

There hasn't been a case where a map had so many strings, it ran out of string space. Btw, there are 256 location strings, or 64 in vanilla SC (including "Anywhere").

I've talked to DW in the past, and as far as I know you people are deluding yourselves if you think he's EVER going to implement autocomplete. As far as he's told me, his whole plan is pretty much exactly what he has now. No tree, no autocomplete. The only thing he has left to do is clean up the rest of the arguments, making sure that all of the units are included, putting names on the ai scripts etc.

Now, if you think I don't like the pseudo-function trigger format, you're wrong. StarForge does the same thing and I love it. It's fast and simple, and with autocomplete it's far faster than any other way of editing triggers. However, that speed is thrown out the window when you have no way to quickly search and access triggers.

Ok, I admit that I could make my own trigger editor for SCMD2. However, that wouldn't help string conservation at all, nor give us map compression or protection. Also, with SCMD there is NO WAY to keep an updated data set for things like unit and location names (that I know of). So, for example, if I wanted my trigger editor to autocomplete, however allow you to use either the original name of a unit or the custom name you've given it (making it so either one would work), there is no way of doing that. Of course, I might be wrong about that, but that's one feature, and there's a LOT of other IMPORTANT features that wouldn't be possible (unit stacking, map protection, string conservation) which are not planned for SCMD2 (and have been refused on several occasions).

Edit: Hrm, I wasn't sure if they were one byte or two. I didn't know it was signed though.
By breifing effects, I mean text effects (fading, movement etc) which I have been known to use in my maps. Of course, if your fading is symmetric, proper string conservation would cut the number of strings used in half, which is ok, but you're still losing 384 or so string pointers and a good deal of text space with locations, switches, and comments.

have you ever heard of the term "backward compatibility"?

Backwards compatible with WHAT? SCMD1? SF? woo we can't possibly leave out those two! Or possibly get off our LAZY ASS and allow for saving in multiple formats in case you DO need that...

I was thinking of staredit, SCXE, etc...

Same problem, easily solved with mutliple save formats (each one handling strings different ways). Of course, you use square terrain, no? THAT isn't compatible with SCXE etc. Sure, they can read it, but no they can't handle the ISOM data correctly.

When did you talk to him? I just asked SI, it will get completed.

SF doesn't do the same thing, it's a combination of GUI and text triggers.

SCMD2 already conserves strings as much as possible without using nonsensical things such as deleting switch/location names (once again, you won't EVER need more than the theoretical string limit and location/switch names).

Why is there no way of implementing either new or old names? It's possible, SCMD2 uses all data that SC uses. It very well could be an option, post it in suggestions.

What does unit stacking have anything to do with trigger editing? Or map protection, for that matter?

It seems as if though you're really reaching to attack SCMD2 on more grounds than just its trigger editor.

Just accept it: TrigEdit is the only non-polished side of SCMD2 because it still isn't done, but it will gain all that fancy stuff when it will be. If you can't wait, code your own. There aren't any (or many) restrictions. It does every sane thing to conserve strings, and protection won't be implemented (because of people asking for unprotects if they ever accidentally protect their maps).

ADDITION:

SCMD2 already recycles strings.

SCMD2 is the closest you can get to backwards compatibility while still having the new stuff. What you're trying to do (deleting locations and switches?) won't give you much back, since once again, you won't ever use more than the theoretical limit. You can't name one example that's a string hog enough to require deletion of location and switch strings. It's just stupid to do it in the first place. Multiple formats is just insane for that small of a benefit.

I didn't say 'delete' the strings for comments, location names and switch names. That would make editing harder. You simply move them OUT of the chk's string space so that they're not taking up space that could be used for GUI text.

I never said SCMD2 wasn't a good editor. I mean, for terrain it's currently the best, but that doesn't mean it has or will have every feature that could be of considerable use to a mapmaker. Anyway, I'm done screwing around here. I was looking for people who maybe knew Objective-C well enough to help on this project, but apparently you're all just leeches. I've already got 2 people and I can get more elsewhere. Have a nice time waiting.